lemiwinks
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Post by lemiwinks on Nov 14, 2014 13:37:32 GMT -5
Well, you are right about that. When you spend just to spend, you end up with players like Carlos Beltran, Alfonso Soriano, Brian Roberts, Brain McCann, Chase Headley, Ichiro Suzuki, Kelly Johnson, and Chris Capuano So basically a formula that led to 4 titles ummmm.......no what lead to 4 titles was a core of young homegrown players like Rivera, Jeter, Bernie Williams, Pettitte, Posada....etc.... let me know if you want to learn more about the yankees and what made them successful. |
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Post by Just Another Shem on Nov 14, 2014 13:37:43 GMT -5
Well, you are right about that. When you spend just to spend, you end up with players like Carlos Beltran, Alfonso Soriano, Brian Roberts, Brain McCann, Chase Headley, Ichiro Suzuki, Kelly Johnson, and Chris Capuano So basically a formula that led to 4 titles Accuses Boston fans of being chumps living in the past for talking about a title in 2013. Later talks about a title in 1996. NOT the behavior of cunts. |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 13:40:41 GMT -5
So basically a formula that led to 4 titles ummmm.......no what lead to 4 titles was a core of young homegrown players like Rivera, Jeter, Bernie Williams, Pettitte, Posada....etc.... let me know if you want to learn more about the yankees and what made them successful. Yeah ok pal You just named 4 guys on a 25 man roster, including a closer and a guy that pitches every 5 games How do you think the rest of the roster was assembled? There is not "etc", the "etc" was using the same exact formula they do today Saying they were luckier with the guys they brought in back than, than they have been recently, would be an accurate statement But the approach has never changed |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 13:44:11 GMT -5
Well, you are right about that. When you spend just to spend, you end up with players like Carlos Beltran, Alfonso Soriano, Brian Roberts, Brain McCann, Chase Headley, Ichiro Suzuki, Kelly Johnson, and Chris Capuano So basically a formula that led to 4 titles On a different day you would be arguing that the Fraudkees won four titles with homegrown talent.
And, no, that formula did not win four titles. The FAs brought in during the four title run were far better players. You can't compare the present group of junk to Tino Martinez, Gary Sheffield, Roger Clemens and David Cone
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Post by Just Another Shem on Nov 14, 2014 13:45:12 GMT -5
ummmm.......no what lead to 4 titles was a core of young homegrown players like Rivera, Jeter, Bernie Williams, Pettitte, Posada....etc.... let me know if you want to learn more about the yankees and what made them successful. Yeah ok pal You just named 4 guys on a 25 man roster, including a closer and a guy that pitches every 5 games How do you think the rest of the roster was assembled? There is not "etc", the "etc" was using the same exact formula they do today Saying they were luckier with the guys they brought in back than, than they have been recently, would be an accurate statement But the approach has never changed "They did t win because of their five home grown superstars, they won because of Sojo, Leyritz and Hayes" |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 13:48:23 GMT -5
"Jimmy Key, Tino Martinez, Jon Wetlland, Wade Boggs, Charlie Hayes, David Weathers, Jeff Nelson, Graeme Lloyd, Darry Strawberry, David Cone and dozen others weren't HUGE reasons for the Yankees Dynasty"
- fucking assholes that think hookers still walk the streets of midtown Manhattan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 13:50:25 GMT -5
If you're starting a team from scratch, nobody is picking McCutcheon over Kershaw Because people are still thinking backwards. Starting pitching is the most abundant product on the market. I'll take arguably the best player in baseball to man CF for me 160 games a yeat. The teams that had the best pitching went the deepest in the playoffs. As usual you are a dumbass with a dumbass opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 13:53:25 GMT -5
A starting pitcher can shut down a game. A position player can get pitched around.
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Nov 14, 2014 14:10:08 GMT -5
Yeah about 110 for 10. Napoli, Ortiz, Victorino, Castillo, Pedroia, Mujica, Koji, Buchholz, Cespedes, and Craig. ouch.....and is anyone going to get a good arbitration payday? Maybe Tazawa, but that's about it and shouldn't be that big a payday. |
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lemiwinks
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Post by lemiwinks on Nov 14, 2014 14:21:45 GMT -5
ummmm.......no what lead to 4 titles was a core of young homegrown players like Rivera, Jeter, Bernie Williams, Pettitte, Posada....etc.... let me know if you want to learn more about the yankees and what made them successful. Yeah ok pal You just named 4 guys on a 25 man roster, including a closer and a guy that pitches every 5 games How do you think the rest of the roster was assembled? There is not "etc", the "etc" was using the same exact formula they do today Saying they were luckier with the guys they brought in back than, than they have been recently, would be an accurate statement But the approach has never changed really? yankees payroll/ next highest payroll 1995 47 mil/50 1996 53 mil/49 1997 60 mil/55 1998 65 mil/71 1999 88 mil/81 2000 92 mil/88 2001 109 mil/109 2002 125 mil/108 2003 152 mil/117 2004 182 mil/125 2005 205 mil/121 2006 194 mil/120 2007 189 mil/143 2008 209 mil/137 2009 201 mil/135 2010 206 mil/162 2011 201 mil/172 2012 197 mil/174 2013 228 mil/216 2014 203 mil/235 so to recap.....in the late 90s when they were winning 4 WS.....their payroll was in line with the other high paying teams, then they started trying to outspend everyone in the early to mid 2000s......and the only difference now(over the last 3 or 4 years), is that some other unsuccessful teams have joined them in trying fill their rosters with overpaid FAs...like the Phils & Dodgers.... not really working for any of them.... |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 14:27:53 GMT -5
Yeah ok pal You just named 4 guys on a 25 man roster, including a closer and a guy that pitches every 5 games How do you think the rest of the roster was assembled? There is not "etc", the "etc" was using the same exact formula they do today Saying they were luckier with the guys they brought in back than, than they have been recently, would be an accurate statement But the approach has never changed really? yankees payroll/ next highest payroll 1995 47 mil/50 1996 53 mil/49 1997 60 mil/55 1998 65 mil/71 1999 88 mil/81 2000 92 mil/88 2001 109 mil/109 2002 125 mil/108 2003 152 mil/117 2004 182 mil/125 2005 205 mil/121 2006 194 mil/120 2007 189 mil/143 2008 209 mil/137 2009 201 mil/135 2010 206 mil/162 2011 201 mil/172 2012 197 mil/174 2013 228 mil/216 2014 203 mil/235 so to recap.....in the late 90s when they were winning 4 WS.....their payroll was in line with the other high paying teams, then they started trying to outspend everyone in the early to mid 2000s......and the only difference now(over the last 3 or 4 years), is that some other unsuccessful teams have joined them in trying fill their rosters with overpaid FAs...like the Phils & Dodgers.... not really working for any of them.... Doesn't debunk the theory that it was a homegrown formula that was used Those titles were won mostly on the backs of players from outside the organization They were famous for getting top dollar returns from guys not getting top dollar back than |
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lemiwinks
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Post by lemiwinks on Nov 14, 2014 14:36:50 GMT -5
"Jimmy Key, Tino Martinez, Jon Wetlland, Wade Boggs, Charlie Hayes, David Weathers, Jeff Nelson, Graeme Lloyd, Darry Strawberry, David Cone and dozen others weren't HUGE reasons for the Yankees Dynasty" - fucking assholes that think hookers still walk the streets of midtown Manhattan those guys dont sniff the playoffs without the homegrown core. |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 14:37:56 GMT -5
"Jimmy Key, Tino Martinez, Jon Wetlland, Wade Boggs, Charlie Hayes, David Weathers, Jeff Nelson, Graeme Lloyd, Darry Strawberry, David Cone and dozen others weren't HUGE reasons for the Yankees Dynasty" - fucking assholes that think hookers still walk the streets of midtown Manhattan those guys dont sniff the playoffs without the homegrown core. Agreed, but its basically the same formula used by teams winning today Some homegrown, some outside help |
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OXlodge
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Post by OXlodge on Nov 14, 2014 14:40:22 GMT -5
"Jimmy Key, Tino Martinez, Jon Wetlland, Wade Boggs, Charlie Hayes, David Weathers, Jeff Nelson, Graeme Lloyd, Darry Strawberry, David Cone and dozen others weren't HUGE reasons for the Yankees Dynasty" - fucking assholes that think hookers still walk the streets of midtown Manhattan those guys dont sniff the playoffs without the homegrown core. I disagree to an extent. I watched Chad Curtis light up the Braves in 99. They had the knack from top to bottom that guys were coming through. I bring up a ton of instances where some of those guys (and I can say more) came up in a big situation was needed. And Wetteland came over from Montreal and was part of the 96 team, shit he won the MVP of the WS that year. We can't leave off guys like Brosius either. So many FA guys brought in that were the right fit. In retrospect, the core 4 guys should be thanking them. |
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lemiwinks
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Post by lemiwinks on Nov 14, 2014 14:44:36 GMT -5
those guys dont sniff the playoffs without the homegrown core. Agreed, but its basically the same formula used by teams winning today Some homegrown, some outside help Significant homegrown talent....... You honestly think that the yankees are going about things the same way as the Giants, Royals, Cards, etc? |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 14:56:12 GMT -5
Agreed, but its basically the same formula used by teams winning today Some homegrown, some outside help Significant homegrown talent....... You honestly think that the yankees are going about things the same way as the Giants, Royals, Cards, etc? You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong |
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bigddude
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Post by bigddude on Nov 14, 2014 15:00:25 GMT -5
Significant homegrown talent....... You honestly think that the yankees are going about things the same way as the Giants, Royals, Cards, etc? You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong Thinking of all teams, and all team building methodology, I think the Giants & Royals of this year show us that a team working as a team, and all on board with the manager and pulling the same way all at the same time, beats a collection of talented stars or superstars who are all about themselves, and all doing their own thing. |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 15:01:21 GMT -5
You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong Thinking of all teams, and all team building methodology, I think the Giants & Royals of this year show us that a team working as a team, and all on board with the manager and pulling the same way all at the same time, beats a collection of talented stars or superstars who are all about themselves, and all doing their own thing. Don't Dis-agree |
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bigddude
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Post by bigddude on Nov 14, 2014 15:03:51 GMT -5
Thinking of all teams, and all team building methodology, I think the Giants & Royals of this year show us that a team working as a team, and all on board with the manager and pulling the same way all at the same time, beats a collection of talented stars or superstars who are all about themselves, and all doing their own thing. Don't Dis-agree I think the recent Yankee dynasty pulled off the rare double trouble, in that they all made bank, and they all still cared about the team, each other, and winning. |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 15:04:58 GMT -5
I think the recent Yankee dynasty pulled off the rare double trouble, in that they all made bank, and they all still cared about the team, each other, and winning. Definitely a rare and special team...As Ox Pointed out, they got superstar efforts from endless amounts of players that weren't superstars, and were definitely not being paid superstar salaries |
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Chappion
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Post by Chappion on Nov 14, 2014 15:08:14 GMT -5
Significant homegrown talent....... You honestly think that the yankees are going about things the same way as the Giants, Royals, Cards, etc? You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong Cashman has been in an extended slump when it comes to signing guys. He hasn't done much right in a decade. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 15:44:34 GMT -5
Significant homegrown talent....... You honestly think that the yankees are going about things the same way as the Giants, Royals, Cards, etc? You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong Think the point is their is more wrong than right in FA these days. Because they get 6 years of control and a lot of the better ones are signing long term extentions these days. When most of these guys hit FA. The best years are probably in the past and you are paying of track record more than actual projected production. Its slated these days to be a more losing battle than a winning one. Of course their is always smart FA signings..but the odds are curtailing against that as the market inflates and more teams give the young studs extensions. That is why trading and farm building are favored. Its stacking odds. Any prospect can bust, but load up on a bunch of them. a few are bound to hit. You have a much better time buying low in the trade market than FA. What do you think was cashmens better deal? Signing all those big time FAs or, trading for Headley, McCarthey, and Prado? |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 15:52:18 GMT -5
You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong Think the point is their is more wrong than right in FA these days. Because they get 6 years of control and a lot of the better ones are signing long term extentions these days. When most of these guys hit FA. The best years are probably in the past and you are paying of track record more than actual projected production. Its slated these days to be a more losing battle than a winning one. Of course their is always smart FA signings..but the odds are curtailing against that as the market inflates and more teams give the young studs extensions. That is why trading and farm building are favored. Its stacking odds. Any prospect can bust, but load up on a bunch of them. a few are bound to hit. You have a much better time buying low in the trade market than FA. What do you think was cashmens better deal? Signing all those big time FAs or, trading for Headley, McCarthey, and Prado? Agreed with all of that.....But I don't like to judge signings all in hindsight, I leave that to the "Geniuses" that will tell ya how bad a signing was after the guy has a crappy season.....I was all in on the McCann signing........Didn't want Ellsbury, because I never want a Red Sox player.........And I didn't hate the Beltran signing, he came off some healthy seasons in St Louis without the benefit of the DH, his dropoff surprised me most....... But on the flipside, the approach of 2014, won them a World Series in 2009, so its hard for me to say "It just doesn't work"......Sometimes I think its as simple as this.....A Player can make a GM look real smart or real dumb, don't know how many signings by Cashman or most GM's you could say AT THE VERY TIME of the signing, "Wow, that's a stupid move"........When Albert Pujols signed in Anaheim, I think most people had them winning the next 10 World Series....... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 16:02:48 GMT -5
Think the point is their is more wrong than right in FA these days. Because they get 6 years of control and a lot of the better ones are signing long term extentions these days. When most of these guys hit FA. The best years are probably in the past and you are paying of track record more than actual projected production. Its slated these days to be a more losing battle than a winning one. Of course their is always smart FA signings..but the odds are curtailing against that as the market inflates and more teams give the young studs extensions. That is why trading and farm building are favored. Its stacking odds. Any prospect can bust, but load up on a bunch of them. a few are bound to hit. You have a much better time buying low in the trade market than FA. What do you think was cashmens better deal? Signing all those big time FAs or, trading for Headley, McCarthey, and Prado? Agreed with all of that.....But I don't like to judge signings all in hindsight, I leave that to the "Geniuses" that will tell ya how bad a signing was after the guy has a crappy season.....I was all in on the McCann signing........Didn't want Ellsbury, because I never want a Red Sox player.........And I didn't hate the Beltran signing, he came off some healthy seasons in St Louis without the benefit of the DH, his dropoff surprised me most....... But on the flipside, the approach of 2014, won them a World Series in 2009, so its hard for me to say "It just doesn't work"......Sometimes I think its as simple as this.....A Player can make a GM look real smart or real dumb, don't know how many signings by Cashman or most GM's you could say AT THE VERY TIME of the signing, "Wow, that's a stupid move"........When Albert Pujols signed in Anaheim, I think most people had them winning the next 10 World Series....... Its playing the odds. I'm not judging on hindsight. I'm just going off common sense that if you sign a guy who is 31. His best years were probably played, with maybe 2 great years left and he is going to want to get paid for his past performance. That the odds are he wont repeat in his long term deal in his 30's. It doesn't kill the Yankees to over-pay if they get the guy they want. However I do think giving up picks for these signing is not the smart play. Say what you want about prospects. The coveted ones have trade value. Better farm=better options to trade for better proven talent. Tanaka was a smart signing. WHy? Because he is younger than most FA and he costed no draft picks. |
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Chappion
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Post by Chappion on Nov 14, 2014 16:09:10 GMT -5
Agreed with all of that.....But I don't like to judge signings all in hindsight, I leave that to the "Geniuses" that will tell ya how bad a signing was after the guy has a crappy season.....I was all in on the McCann signing........Didn't want Ellsbury, because I never want a Red Sox player.........And I didn't hate the Beltran signing, he came off some healthy seasons in St Louis without the benefit of the DH, his dropoff surprised me most....... But on the flipside, the approach of 2014, won them a World Series in 2009, so its hard for me to say "It just doesn't work"......Sometimes I think its as simple as this.....A Player can make a GM look real smart or real dumb, don't know how many signings by Cashman or most GM's you could say AT THE VERY TIME of the signing, "Wow, that's a stupid move"........When Albert Pujols signed in Anaheim, I think most people had them winning the next 10 World Series....... Its playing the odds. I'm not judging on hindsight. I'm just going off common sense that if you sign a guy who is 31. His best years were probably played, with maybe 2 great years left and he is going to want to get paid for his past performance. That the odds are he wont repeat in his long term deal in his 30's. It doesn't kill the Yankees to over-pay if they get the guy they want. However I do think giving up picks for these signing is not the smart play. Say what you want about prospects. The coveted ones have trade value. Better farm=better options to trade for better proven talent. Tanaka was a smart signing. WHy? Because he is younger than most FA and he costed no draft picks. I never understood the Tanaka move and said as much at the time. I thought a $175m outlay for a guy who had never pitched in MLB seemed way excessive. I said it made more sense last year to sign a guy like Garza for $140m less. Not that Garza is anything special, but $175m?  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 16:14:09 GMT -5
Its playing the odds. I'm not judging on hindsight. I'm just going off common sense that if you sign a guy who is 31. His best years were probably played, with maybe 2 great years left and he is going to want to get paid for his past performance. That the odds are he wont repeat in his long term deal in his 30's. It doesn't kill the Yankees to over-pay if they get the guy they want. However I do think giving up picks for these signing is not the smart play. Say what you want about prospects. The coveted ones have trade value. Better farm=better options to trade for better proven talent. Tanaka was a smart signing. WHy? Because he is younger than most FA and he costed no draft picks. I never understood the Tanaka move and said as much at the time. I thought a $175m outlay for a guy who had never pitched in MLB seemed way excessive. I said it made more sense last year to sign a guy like Garza for $140m less. Not that Garza is anything special, but $175m? They paid more because they were paying from years in his PRIME. While every other pitcher was at or close to past his prime. That is why he went for more. Track record is way way over-rated. You should only care what he does from the signing forward... That is what the Yankees were going for. Because every single signing is a gamble. So if you are gonna gamble. Play the odds. You can't predict the future. When you admit that. Then you can start doing things. Not saying proven against MLB hitting or pitching doesn't matters. It does..just gets way over-rated Teams were not able to stomach paying Abreu more than the White Sox because of the same reason...and now look how that deal looks now.. |
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lemiwinks
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Post by lemiwinks on Nov 14, 2014 16:18:34 GMT -5
Significant homegrown talent....... You honestly think that the yankees are going about things the same way as the Giants, Royals, Cards, etc? You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong No....I'm saying that refusting to develop their a minor league system is fucking killing them.... no only do they not have good players coming up to help them...they also dont have any prospects to trade for younger established players.... so they are stuck with the 30 something FAs whose best years are already behind them..... how has it been working out for them the last couple of years? Are those injuries just bad luck.....or is it just a result of having your entire roster made up of 35 yr olds....... |
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Post by NEW YORK on Nov 14, 2014 16:56:40 GMT -5
You honestly think given the Financial Resources, the Giants, Royals and Cardinals wouldn't be going about their business like the Yankees? I think youre implying the Yankees have signed the "Wrong" guys more than youre saying the approach is wrong No....I'm saying that refusting to develop their a minor league system is fucking killing them.... no only do they not have good players coming up to help them...they also dont have any prospects to trade for younger established players.... so they are stuck with the 30 something FAs whose best years are already behind them..... how has it been working out for them the last couple of years? Are those injuries just bad luck.....or is it just a result of having your entire roster made up of 35 yr olds....... I just honestly cant see eye to eye on how its "Killing them"....They have missed the postseason 3 times in 20+ years now......As you saw last winter, the back end of the deals that are killing them; CC, Tex, Arod, they have the resources to go out and cover those mistakes up....Again, we are having this conversation because McCann, Beltran and Ellsbury didn't light the world on fire....if they had? I guarantee you no one would be harping on how bad the deals are for Tex, CC and Arod.....Win some, Lose some....Those signings worked out in 2009, didn't work out in 2014 |
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Post by mrpickles on Nov 14, 2014 17:03:18 GMT -5
No....I'm saying that refusting to develop their a minor league system is fucking killing them.... no only do they not have good players coming up to help them...they also dont have any prospects to trade for younger established players.... so they are stuck with the 30 something FAs whose best years are already behind them..... how has it been working out for them the last couple of years? Are those injuries just bad luck.....or is it just a result of having your entire roster made up of 35 yr olds....... I just honestly cant see eye to eye on how its "Killing them"....They have missed the postseason 3 times in 20+ years now......As you saw last winter, the back end of the deals that are killing them; CC, Tex, Arod, they have the resources to go out and cover those mistakes up....Again, we are having this conversation because McCann, Beltran and Ellsbury didn't light the world on fire....if they had? I guarantee you no one would be harping on how bad the deals are for Tex, CC and Arod.....Win some, Lose some....Those signings worked out in 2009, didn't work out in 2014 One thing that would terrify me if I was a yanks fan is how drastically numbers for lefties have been falling over the last 10 yrs as more teams use the shifts. |
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lemiwinks
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Post by lemiwinks on Nov 14, 2014 17:07:35 GMT -5
No....I'm saying that refusting to develop their a minor league system is fucking killing them.... no only do they not have good players coming up to help them...they also dont have any prospects to trade for younger established players.... so they are stuck with the 30 something FAs whose best years are already behind them..... how has it been working out for them the last couple of years? Are those injuries just bad luck.....or is it just a result of having your entire roster made up of 35 yr olds....... I just honestly cant see eye to eye on how its "Killing them"....They have missed the postseason 3 times in 20+ years now......As you saw last winter, the back end of the deals that are killing them; CC, Tex, Arod, they have the resources to go out and cover those mistakes up....Again, we are having this conversation because McCann, Beltran and Ellsbury didn't light the world on fire....if they had? I guarantee you no one would be harping on how bad the deals are for Tex, CC and Arod.....Win some, Lose some....Those signings worked out in 2009, didn't work out in 2014 3 times in the last 20 years isnt really an accurate picture......... how about the last 2 years in a row now that the core is old and gone...... the thing is.... the yanks will always have all these bad contracts....because they keep signing 30 somethings to huge long term deals....and now that they are in this hole...they are going to have to keep doubling up on them.......and any time they happen to get a good prospect, there will be too much pressure to move him for a major leaguer..... 32 yr olds are almost always PAST THEIR PRIME now that they are taking PEDs more seriously. |
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