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Post by Just Another Shem on Jul 25, 2014 13:09:41 GMT -5
Yeah that's exactly what I'm doing comparing Ellsbury to Rickie Henderson. You said the stolen base is the most overrated stat. So go tell that Ricky Henderson. See what he says meatball. "stolen bases arent important" - dave roberts I love it... In order to dispute that stolen bases are overrated, Ox has to immediately go to the best base stealer in history, and Derp has to go to the biggest stolen base in history... Yup... Every steal by Ellsbury is Dave Roberts in game four all over again Yam.. You've cracked the code.. |
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Jul 25, 2014 13:11:43 GMT -5
If you don't know how to quantify it, how do you know how big a problem the lack of Ellsbury is? No one on this board (including Snoogins and Rock) has said the Sox would be the exact same team with Ellsbury instead of JBJ. I think they would be 5-6 games better with Ellsbury (and I think that's generous realizing that the difference between Ellsbury's WAR and JBJ's is less than 1). If you look at runs created, Ellsbury is 27 runs better (which I don't believe factors in defense). Still leaves the sox with a negative run differential. So maybe you're looking at a .500 team. So instead of being in last in the East, they'd be in 4th. snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? I'd take Ellsbury this year and Peavy. I don't believe Peavy is a large part of the problem ( I think if you want to look at SPs - Buchholz is a bigger issue than Peavy) Peavy is something like second to last in the league in run support. But I also dont think Ellsbury (who is not hitting that many home runs or stealing home) solves the problem for the sox. They were/are at the bottom of the league with RISP - even guys like Napoli. They love hitting into double plays. Maybe he helps the DP stats by stealing but he can't run/hit for the other 8 positions. If you buy into what the New Yorkers are saying, you'd have to believe that by simply replacing Bradley with a CF closer to ellsbury and he Sox would be knee deep in the playoff hunt. I think that's a very long stretch. |
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Post by PeteNYC on Jul 25, 2014 13:14:47 GMT -5
elbury's loss isnt overblown. yanks fans are simply pointing out elsbury on the sox instead of JBJ makes them a better team, and they are right. sox fans (mostly u, rock, snoogs) are acting like his numbers were meaningless and he was carried last season. guy was a base stealing machine. stolen bases are very important. not only does it put a guy in scoring position, but it 1000)% gets in apitcher's head when that guy is on first. u think a pitcher with elsbury on first is 1000% focused on the batter? if you feel that way, you either never pitched or you were bad at it. What place would the Red Sox be in if Ellsbury was on the team. I've already said what I believe. What do you believe? if we are going to use that argument, who is better Lester or Pineda? The Sox wouldn't be any worse than last place with an injured Pineda vs. a 2.59 era lester... so, Lester is no better than Pineda |
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Post by MoonDriven on Jul 25, 2014 13:15:56 GMT -5
If you don't know how to quantify it, how do you know how big a problem the lack of Ellsbury is? No one on this board (including Snoogins and Rock) has said the Sox would be the exact same team with Ellsbury instead of JBJ. I think they would be 5-6 games better with Ellsbury (and I think that's generous realizing that the difference between Ellsbury's WAR and JBJ's is less than 1). If you look at runs created, Ellsbury is 27 runs better (which I don't believe factors in defense). Still leaves the sox with a negative run differential. So maybe you're looking at a .500 team. So instead of being in last in the East, they'd be in 4th. snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? Not that IGAF about this argument But why would you replace JBJ with Ellsbury? You could have both in the OF for 2014.. Saying the Red Sox wouldn't be a better team if Ellsbury joined them right now is ridiculous |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 13:16:45 GMT -5
"stolen bases arent important" - dave roberts I love it... In order to dispute that stolen bases are overrated, Ox has to immediately go to the best base stealer in history, and Derp has to go to the biggest stolen base in history... Yup... Every steal by Ellsbury is Dave Roberts in game four all over again Yam.. You've cracked the code.. Boston continues to think the world revolves around them. Jackie Robinson stole home in the World Series. |
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Post by PeteNYC on Jul 25, 2014 13:17:25 GMT -5
Yeah that's exactly what I'm doing comparing Ellsbury to Rickie Henderson. You said the stolen base is the most overrated stat. So go tell that Ricky Henderson. See what he says meatball. Uh huh.... Those A's and Yankees teams sure did a shitload of winning with all of those fancy stolen bases... stolen bases are WAY Overrated... Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS says "what you talkin 'bout" |
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Post by PeteNYC on Jul 25, 2014 13:20:35 GMT -5
If you don't know how to quantify it, how do you know how big a problem the lack of Ellsbury is? No one on this board (including Snoogins and Rock) has said the Sox would be the exact same team with Ellsbury instead of JBJ. I think they would be 5-6 games better with Ellsbury (and I think that's generous realizing that the difference between Ellsbury's WAR and JBJ's is less than 1). If you look at runs created, Ellsbury is 27 runs better (which I don't believe factors in defense). Still leaves the sox with a negative run differential. So maybe you're looking at a .500 team. So instead of being in last in the East, they'd be in 4th. snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? What's Peavey's DWAR this year?! |
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Jul 25, 2014 13:21:06 GMT -5
What place would the Red Sox be in if Ellsbury was on the team. I've already said what I believe. What do you believe? if we are going to use that argument, who is better Lester or Pineda? The Sox wouldn't be any worse than last place with an injured Pineda vs. a 2.59 era lester... so, Lester is no better than Pineda The argument is not who's better (and I think you know that). Ellsbury right now is obviously the over all better outfielder. The argument I was responding to was the idea that the loss of Ellsbury somehow caused all the Sox woes and but for that the Sox would be leading the East. And don't deny you haven't implied that. |
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Post by The Bag on Jul 25, 2014 13:21:39 GMT -5
"stolen bases arent important" - dave roberts I love it... In order to dispute that stolen bases are overrated, Ox has to immediately go to the best base stealer in history, and Derp has to go to the biggest stolen base in history... Yup... Every steal by Ellsbury is Dave Roberts in game four all over again Yam.. You've cracked the code.. the point your head just as expected. |
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Post by The Bag on Jul 25, 2014 13:23:17 GMT -5
snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? I'd take Ellsbury this year and Peavy. I don't believe Peavy is a large part of the problem ( I think if you want to look at SPs - Buchholz is a bigger issue than Peavy) Peavy is something like second to last in the league in run support. But I also dont think Ellsbury (who is not hitting that many home runs or stealing home) solves the problem for the sox. They were/are at the bottom of the league with RISP - even guys like Napoli. They love hitting into double plays. Maybe he helps the DP stats by stealing but he can't run/hit for the other 8 positions. If you buy into what the New Yorkers are saying, you'd have to believe that by simply replacing Bradley with a CF closer to ellsbury and he Sox would be knee deep in the playoff hunt. I think that's a very long stretch. tl;dr, you made my point. thank you. upgrading jbj to elsbury helps them more than peavy pitching like he did last year. that's pretty much what im getting at. pedey, clay, ill agree those are bigger issues than no elsbury. after that, i would be hard pressed to agree with other things being as important. so elsbury is top 3. you say that, i bet dirt and ox would agree. |
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Post by The Bag on Jul 25, 2014 13:24:59 GMT -5
snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? Not that IGAF about this argument But why would you replace JBJ with Ellsbury? You could have both in the OF for 2014.. Saying the Red Sox wouldn't be a better team if Ellsbury joined them right now is ridiculous the argument is snoogs said "not having elsbury isnt in the top ten for reasons the sox are so bad this year". then listed things such as their #4 pitcher not being as good and farrel's managing as bigger reasons. the yanks fans are devouring him for it, rightfully so. |
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Post by PeteNYC on Jul 25, 2014 13:25:55 GMT -5
Phil Hughes has Greater DWAR than Lester!
which one is better.
Hughes DWAR difference makes up for the extra two runs...no?
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Jul 25, 2014 13:26:35 GMT -5
snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? Not that IGAF about this argument But why would you replace JBJ with Ellsbury? You could have both in the OF for 2014.. Saying the Red Sox wouldn't be a better team if Ellsbury joined them right now is ridiculous Because you're ilk has just gotten finished telling us how he can't hit out of a paper bag and that replacing Ellsbury with Bradley that has changed the World Champs into cellar dwellars. I've been trying to explain that I think there are other factors that are more important going on. |
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Jul 25, 2014 13:28:19 GMT -5
I'd take Ellsbury this year and Peavy. I don't believe Peavy is a large part of the problem ( I think if you want to look at SPs - Buchholz is a bigger issue than Peavy) Peavy is something like second to last in the league in run support. But I also dont think Ellsbury (who is not hitting that many home runs or stealing home) solves the problem for the sox. They were/are at the bottom of the league with RISP - even guys like Napoli. They love hitting into double plays. Maybe he helps the DP stats by stealing but he can't run/hit for the other 8 positions. If you buy into what the New Yorkers are saying, you'd have to believe that by simply replacing Bradley with a CF closer to ellsbury and he Sox would be knee deep in the playoff hunt. I think that's a very long stretch. tl;dr, you made my point. thank you. upgrading jbj to elsbury helps them more than peavy pitching like he did last year. that's pretty much what im getting at. pedey, clay, ill agree those are bigger issues than no elsbury. after that, i would be hard pressed to agree with other things being as important. so elsbury is top 3. you say that, i bet dirt and ox would agree. Can't go that high. I might be able to do top 5. Definitely top 10. |
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Post by The Bag on Jul 25, 2014 13:29:23 GMT -5
tl;dr, you made my point. thank you. upgrading jbj to elsbury helps them more than peavy pitching like he did last year. that's pretty much what im getting at. pedey, clay, ill agree those are bigger issues than no elsbury. after that, i would be hard pressed to agree with other things being as important. so elsbury is top 3. you say that, i bet dirt and ox would agree. Can't go that high. I might be able to do top 5. Definitely top 10. top 5 is debatable. "not even in the top 10 for reasons they suck in 2014" is laughable. |
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Jul 25, 2014 13:29:44 GMT -5
Phil Hughes has Greater DWAR than Lester! which one is better. Hughes DWAR difference makes up for the extra two runs...no? There really is no point in having a discussion with you, is there? |
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Post by Just Another Shem on Jul 25, 2014 13:32:25 GMT -5
If you don't know how to quantify it, how do you know how big a problem the lack of Ellsbury is? No one on this board (including Snoogins and Rock) has said the Sox would be the exact same team with Ellsbury instead of JBJ. I think they would be 5-6 games better with Ellsbury (and I think that's generous realizing that the difference between Ellsbury's WAR and JBJ's is less than 1). If you look at runs created, Ellsbury is 27 runs better (which I don't believe factors in defense). Still leaves the sox with a negative run differential. So maybe you're looking at a .500 team. So instead of being in last in the East, they'd be in 4th. snoogs listed shit like jake peavy as a bigger than concern than no elsbury. lets play this game. you can have jake peavy from last season and JBJ in 2014, or jake peavy this season and elsbury in 2014. which one is the better combo? You're right... Jake Peavy has been awesome this year. |
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Post by Super Paul Mullin on Jul 25, 2014 13:32:47 GMT -5
Can't go that high. I might be able to do top 5. Definitely top 10. top 5 is debatable. "not even in the top 10 for reasons they suck in 2014" is laughable. If someone said that, it would be indeed laughable. The fall off in CF production is, as noted, definitely one of the top ten problems. |
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Post by redsoxworrld on Jul 25, 2014 13:38:43 GMT -5
stolen bases are very important but runs scored arent as much WHEN JUDGING A PLAYER'S VALUE? seriously? why steal a base then? yam, i must be missing somethign here moneyball, if you are believer in it, basically says steals are worthless (i disagree somewhat, situationally...steals are huge (dave roberts just farted)) I finished the sentence for you. stop drawing conclusions on what i said and changing it. i simply said, the stat "runs scored" is overrated. many players have SHIT runs scored totals bc the guys arounf them suck dick. many guys have inflated runs scored bc they play before monsters. runs is based mostly on other people's work. stolen bases are purely based on their own doing. you cant score runs if you dont get on base and if you are getting on base you are doing your job, so yeah, runs scored is a very meaningful stat of course it helps to have run producers batting after you.......duh but go do a quick look of players who have led the league in runs scored the past ten years, don't think you will find may scrubs on that list and I already addressed the value of runs scored as an individual vs. team stat im not saying guys scoring runs are more important than the ones driving them in.....but for you to say that runs scored as an individual is overjetered or worthless or whatever you said is just wrong, especially when you said in same sentence that steals have more value |
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Post by The Bag on Jul 25, 2014 13:44:30 GMT -5
top 5 is debatable. "not even in the top 10 for reasons they suck in 2014" is laughable. If someone said that, it would be indeed laughable. The fall off in CF production is, as noted, definitely one of the top ten problems. welp someone did say it. read back some pages. snoogs listed 10 things. |
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Post by redsoxworrld on Jul 25, 2014 13:49:16 GMT -5
worthless? no way if a guy is scoring that many runs, it means he is getting on base a ton, which means he is either getting a lot of hits, which you just said is good, or is drawing a ton of walksso no way in hell is runs scored a worthless stat for an individual player WHICH MAKES THE RUNS LESS IMPORTANT THAN HOW HE GOT ON BASE OR MOVED AROUND THE BASES. omg "less important" =/= worthless but when it comes to judging a player, IMO its worthless. sorry yam, the object of baseball is scoring runs or preventing the other side from scoring runs how the hell can runs be less important than how he got on base or moved around the bases? |
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Post by redsoxworrld on Jul 25, 2014 13:51:49 GMT -5
What place would the Red Sox be in if Ellsbury was on the team. I've already said what I believe. What do you believe? if we are going to use that argument, who is better Lester or Pineda? The Sox wouldn't be any worse than last place with an injured Pineda vs. a 2.59 era lester... so, Lester is no better than Pineda Lester came back from cancer Pineda has been out months because he got yelled at by MLB |
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Post by redsoxworrld on Jul 25, 2014 13:55:50 GMT -5
I'd take Ellsbury this year and Peavy. I don't believe Peavy is a large part of the problem ( I think if you want to look at SPs - Buchholz is a bigger issue than Peavy) Peavy is something like second to last in the league in run support. But I also dont think Ellsbury (who is not hitting that many home runs or stealing home) solves the problem for the sox. They were/are at the bottom of the league with RISP - even guys like Napoli. They love hitting into double plays. Maybe he helps the DP stats by stealing but he can't run/hit for the other 8 positions. If you buy into what the New Yorkers are saying, you'd have to believe that by simply replacing Bradley with a CF closer to ellsbury and he Sox would be knee deep in the playoff hunt. I think that's a very long stretch. tl;dr, you made my point. thank you. upgrading jbj to elsbury helps them more than peavy pitching like he did last year. that's pretty much what im getting at. pedey, clay, ill agree those are bigger issues than no elsbury. after that, i would be hard pressed to agree with other things being as important. so elsbury is top 3. you say that, i bet dirt and ox would agree. clay # 1 ells #2 catching #3 Pedroia #4 3 and 4 could be interchangeable cherington gets biggest blame of any non player, with Farell and Colbrunn at 2a and 2b |
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Post by The Bag on Jul 25, 2014 13:59:29 GMT -5
WHICH MAKES THE RUNS LESS IMPORTANT THAN HOW HE GOT ON BASE OR MOVED AROUND THE BASES. omg "less important" =/= worthless but when it comes to judging a player, IMO its worthless. sorry yam, the object of baseball is scoring runs or preventing the other side from scoring runs how the hell can runs be less important than how he got on base or moved around the bases? k the best offensive player in the game is the one with the most runs, right? hunter pence. bet player in the game! ok, not im out, it's 3pm. |
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Post by redsoxworrld on Jul 25, 2014 14:00:58 GMT -5
sorry yam, the object of baseball is scoring runs or preventing the other side from scoring runs how the hell can runs be less important than how he got on base or moved around the bases? k the best offensive player in the game is the one with the most runs, right? hunter pence. bet player in the game! ok, not im out, it's 3pm. so now you change your argument? go home and do several hail marys as penance and come back and apologize on Monday |
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Post by Just Another Shem on Jul 25, 2014 14:08:37 GMT -5
top 5 is debatable. "not even in the top 10 for reasons they suck in 2014" is laughable. If someone said that, it would be indeed laughable. The fall off in CF production is, as noted, definitely one of the top ten problems. They're getting better production out of the leadoff spot and getting better defense in centerfield. |
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OXlodge
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Post by OXlodge on Jul 25, 2014 14:09:23 GMT -5
So basically it takes 2 players to be Jacoby Ellsbury.
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Post by down38str8 on Jul 25, 2014 14:13:45 GMT -5
If someone said that, it would be indeed laughable. The fall off in CF production is, as noted, definitely one of the top ten problems. They're getting better production out of the leadoff spot and getting better defense in centerfield. #1. Corner OF'ers - Victorino, Nava, Sizemore, Carp all busts... #2. Middlebrooks...he was expected to be a solid #6 hitter and has provided bupkiss and forced them to move bogie to 3rd and sign drew...which has been a catastrophe #3. Catchers #4. Buchholz #5. Peavy Somewhere after that, is the slight downgrade they've gotten from JBJ (overall), his defense hasn't completely closed the gap from what they lost offensively...but it's closed it some...his bat wouldn't be considered a problem if the 8 guys ahead of him were pulling their weight...which for most of the season? They weren't... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:15:46 GMT -5
They're getting better production out of the leadoff spot and getting better defense in centerfield. #1. Corner OF'ers - Victorino, Nava, Sizemore, Carp all busts... #2. Middlebrooks...he was expected to be a solid #6 hitter and has provided bupkiss and forced them to move bogie to 3rd and sign drew...which has been a catastrophe #3. Catchers #4. Buchholz #5. Peavy Somewhere after that, is the slight downgrade they've gotten from JBJ (overall), his defense hasn't completely closed the gap from what they lost offensively...but it's closed it some...his bat wouldn't be considered a problem if the 8 guys ahead of him were pulling their weight...which for most of the season? They weren't... pedroia belongs there too |
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OXlodge
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Post by OXlodge on Jul 25, 2014 14:17:09 GMT -5
Pedroia?
Oh shit just real up in here son.
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