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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 14, 2015 11:32:21 GMT -5
I don't know about debate but I would have Ted and Yaz ahead of Papa. Can't see Trout over Ryan he will probably be one day but 3 seasons is a little early. The most glaring omission has to be Jackie Robinson as HM instead of 1 or 2 and Gary Carter is Mr Expo. I'd take Molitor over Cooper for sure and if Trout is in the discussion for the Angels Stanton should be one for the Marlins, williewilliejuan will be happy all his names are included as Giants I agree with all of it...Robinson replaces the "Duke", Carter replaces cokehead Raines, Molitor replaces Cooper. Stanton is too much of a work in progress, i.m.o.Yes he is, but in spite of the team having 2 good seasons out of 22. Although they have won 2 WS they have yet to win a division and rarely have kept players for long. Only other guy besides the ones named are the ones they traded instead of paying them oh and Charles Johnson was the C for quite a while. Stanton is hands down the best player they (when playing for the Marlins) have ever had |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 14, 2015 11:39:13 GMT -5
I agree with all of it...Robinson replaces the "Duke", Carter replaces cokehead Raines, Molitor replaces Cooper. Stanton is too much of a work in progress, i.m.o.Yes he is, but in spite of the team having 2 good seasons out of 22. Although they have won 2 WS they have yet to win a division and rarely have kept players for long. Only other guy besides the ones named are the ones they traded instead of paying them oh and Charles Johnson was the C for quite a while. Stanton is hands down the best player they (when playing for the Marlins) have ever had Guess what I'm really complaining about is Pudge played 1 friigin' season there. There is no way he should be on the list asa Marlin Ranger yes Marlin notta |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 14, 2015 12:14:45 GMT -5
backroads said... Some days the best thing about my job is that the chair spinsMy head spins though...  |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 14, 2015 16:57:30 GMT -5
Yes he is, but in spite of the team having 2 good seasons out of 22. Although they have won 2 WS they have yet to win a division and rarely have kept players for long. Only other guy besides the ones named are the ones they traded instead of paying them oh and Charles Johnson was the C for quite a while. Stanton is hands down the best player they (when playing for the Marlins) have ever had Guess what I'm really complaining about is Pudge played 1 friigin' season there. There is no way he should be on the list asa Marlin Ranger yes Marlin notta Sounds to me like you are willing to "die on that hill" Swampy. Therefore the "magic genie" grants your wish. Not three, just one. This is a poor genie (old fuck too) and he also is not offering any magic carpet rides. Get with John Kay for that one. Next update will have Stanton and not Pudge. Actually, Pudge arguably deserves a place on the Tigers' list for helping put them back on the map. Then they acquired Miggy. Thanks Marlins!  |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 14, 2015 17:16:07 GMT -5
Guess what I'm really complaining about is Pudge played 1 friigin' season there. There is no way he should be on the list asa Marlin Ranger yes Marlin notta Sounds to me like you are willing to "die on that hill" Swampy. Therefore the "magic genie" grants your wish. Not three, just one. This is a poor genie (old fuck too) and he also is not offering any magic carpet rides. Get with John Kay for that one. Next update will have Stanton and not Pudge. Actually, Pudge arguably deserves a place on the Tigers' list for helping put them back on the map. Then they acquired Miggy. Thanks Marlins! No Stanton was a knee jerk reaction to Trout being ahead of Nolan As for the Marlins Conine, Sheffield, Hanley, Charles Johnson, even Cabrera could be considered as well as Stantion |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 14, 2015 17:27:35 GMT -5
Sounds to me like you are willing to "die on that hill" Swampy. Therefore the "magic genie" grants your wish. Not three, just one. This is a poor genie (old fuck too) and he also is not offering any magic carpet rides. Get with John Kay for that one. Next update will have Stanton and not Pudge. Actually, Pudge arguably deserves a place on the Tigers' list for helping put them back on the map. Then they acquired Miggy. Thanks Marlins! No Stanton was a knee jerk reaction to Trout being ahead of Nolan As for the Marlins Conine, Sheffield, Hanley, Charles Johnson, even Cabrera could be considered as well as Stantion Conine "the barbarian" actually is a really good pick for the Marlins. Nolan likely had his best moments as an Angel, including the link I supplied here to Norm Cash of the Tigers bringing a table leg up to the plate instead of a bat during Nolan's second career no hitter. But he played for so many teams that I have a hard time putting a "hat" on him. Do you know what cap he wore into the HoF induction? |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 14, 2015 18:08:27 GMT -5
No Stanton was a knee jerk reaction to Trout being ahead of Nolan As for the Marlins Conine, Sheffield, Hanley, Charles Johnson, even Cabrera could be considered as well as Stantion Conine "the barbarian" actually is a really good pick for the Marlins. Nolan likely had his best moments as an Angel, including the link I supplied here to Norm Cash of the Tigers bringing a table leg up to the plate instead of a bat during Nolan's second career no hitter. But he played for so many teams that I have a hard time putting a "hat" on him. Do you know what cap he wore into the HoF induction? of Texas |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 14, 2015 19:16:48 GMT -5
Conine "the barbarian" actually is a really good pick for the Marlins. Nolan likely had his best moments as an Angel, including the link I supplied here to Norm Cash of the Tigers bringing a table leg up to the plate instead of a bat during Nolan's second career no hitter. But he played for so many teams that I have a hard time putting a "hat" on him. Do you know what cap he wore into the HoF induction? of Texas Thought so. Since he is from Texas I guess I get it, but he would have definitely been the icon for the Angels, and for all time if he had stayed there. Dude did get traded from his original MLB outfit (the Mets, of course, for Jim Fregosi) but he would have been loved by generations of that fan base. |
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Post by Mr mastodon farm on Feb 15, 2015 20:16:13 GMT -5
how do you know you left out of the PED guys?
good list, but we have no idea how many of the old timers used
i'd be willing to bet some of them did
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Post by Mr mastodon farm on Feb 15, 2015 20:17:47 GMT -5
“…As the sporting industry exploded in the 1920s, athletic trainers and their charges immediately saw the possibilities of using his research. Even the Big Bambino himself, Babe Ruth, injected himself with extract from a sheep’s testicles, hoping for increased power at the plate (and in the bedroom). He attempted this only once, and it made him incredibly ill; the Yankees covered the story by telling the press that the Babe just had one of his famous bellyaches. Even though the Yankees tend to celebrate all things Babe Ruth, they have never, to my knowledge, had “Sheep Testicles Day” at the stadium.”
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Post by Mr mastodon farm on Feb 15, 2015 20:18:29 GMT -5
i know ruth isnt on the list, but my point was more that PEDs dates back almost 100 years
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Post by Mr mastodon farm on Feb 15, 2015 20:20:13 GMT -5
Honorable Mentions. AMERICAN LEAGUEYankees - Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera Orioles - Frank Robinson, Cal Ripken Red Sox - Carl Yastrzemski, Pedro Martinez Rays - Fred McGriff Blue Jays - Dave Stieb, Roy Halladay Tigers - Miguel Cabrera, Mickey Lolich Indians - Luis Tiant, Larry Doby White Sox - Wilbur Wood, Dick Allen Twins - Joe Mauer, Tony Oliva Royals - Willie Wilson, John Mayberry Angels - Dean Chance, Frank Tanana Athletics - Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Rollie Fingers Mariners - Randy Johnson, Ichiro Suzuki Rangers - Juan Gonzalez, Adrian Beltre Astros - Jim Wynn, Larry Dierker National LeagueNationals - Pedro Martinez (Expos), Jordan Zimmermann Braves - Eddie Mathews, Tom Glavine Mets - Keith Hernandez, Darryl Strawberry Phillies - Richie Ashburn, Roy Halladay Marlins - Josh Beckett Cardinals - Joe Torre, Ozzie Smith Pirates - Ralph Kiner, Dave Parker Reds - Ted Kluszewski, Frank Robinson Brewers - Rollie Fingers, Pete Vuckovitz Cubs - Kerry Wood, Ron Santo Dodgers - Jackie Robinson, Clayton Kershaw Giants - Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry Diamondbacks - Randy Johnson, Paul Goldschmidt Padres - Dave Dravecky, Eric Show Rockies - Troy Tulowitzki, Andres Gallaraga frank white needs to replace mayberry 8 gold gloves when it meant something, his number is retired, and he has a statue inside the stadium |
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Post by Zig on Feb 15, 2015 20:31:33 GMT -5
how do you know you left out of the PED guys? good list, but we have no idea how many of the old timers used i'd be willing to bet some of them did Well he's got Papi on there. Quite a few others that it wouldnt be very surprising if they used something, Pudge Rodriguez, Luis, Gonzales, ..I should have jotted names down, there were more. Said it before, it's odd how some guys get a pass while others get labeled as PED guys with no actual proof, just "suspected". For all we know Canseco was telling the truth when he said 80% of the league was using. |
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Post by Mr mastodon farm on Feb 15, 2015 20:46:18 GMT -5
how do you know you left out of the PED guys? good list, but we have no idea how many of the old timers used i'd be willing to bet some of them did Well he's got Papi on there. Quite a few others that it wouldnt be very surprising if they used something, Pudge Rodriguez, Luis, Gonzales, ..I should have jotted names down, there were more. Said it before, it's odd how some guys get a pass while others get labeled as PED guys with no actual proof, just "suspected". For all we know Canseco was telling the truth when he said 80% of the league was using. i would be willing to bet he was telling the truth |
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Post by itsgot2bdashooz on Feb 15, 2015 21:12:03 GMT -5
i know ruth isnt on the list, but my point was more that PEDs dates back almost 100 years I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. |
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Post by Mr mastodon farm on Feb 15, 2015 21:20:10 GMT -5
i know ruth isnt on the list, but my point was more that PEDs dates back almost 100 years I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. i heard an interview with a former player who said that every team had two pots of coffee in the clubhouse. one was loaded, one wasnt |
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Post by itsgot2bdashooz on Feb 15, 2015 21:20:43 GMT -5
As for the list, I see Frank Robinson, more as a Oriole, than I do a Red, and could easily replace him with Morgan, and could see an arguement for Joe over Tony, but both are easily in my Reds' top 5, which would include #14.
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Post by Zig on Feb 15, 2015 21:23:30 GMT -5
i know ruth isnt on the list, but my point was more that PEDs dates back almost 100 years I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. Yep. 70's and 80's most of them were doing "Speed" at least to help them get through the grind. I also love all the "outrage" over the steroids like it wasn't obvious at the time something was going on. |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 15, 2015 21:25:05 GMT -5
how do you know you left out of the PED guys? good list, but we have no idea how many of the old timers used i'd be willing to bet some of them did True. I should have used a "Tricky Dick" ism. And said "To the best of my knowledge." Incredibly, as far as modern science has progressed, YES they still had cocaine and heroin back in the days of Ruth. |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 15, 2015 21:26:35 GMT -5
I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. Yep. 70's and 80's most of them were doing "Speed" at least to help them get through the grind. I also love all the "outrage" over the steroids like it wasn't obvious at the time something was going on. Speed was seemingly always there. Let me narrow it down to "roids" and HGH. Still you do not definitively know... |
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Post by itsgot2bdashooz on Feb 15, 2015 21:28:15 GMT -5
I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. i heard an interview with a former player who said that every team had two pots of coffee in the clubhouse. one was loaded, one wasnt I don't doubt it one bit...hell its not rocket surgery, less you are just blind to the obvious. If you think the stars of the past were all saints, then you better start rereading your history. |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 15, 2015 21:30:53 GMT -5
I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. Yep. 70's and 80's most of them were doing "Speed" at least to help them get through the grind. I also love all the "outrage" over the steroids like it wasn't obvious at the time something was going on. Ya think? No doubt Zig. We could all see it for ourselves. But it sucks that you have to utilize evidence that is really not necessarily evidence. All the innocent get judged "guilty by association with the era". Sucks. |
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Post by itsgot2bdashooz on Feb 15, 2015 21:35:06 GMT -5
I have tried making that agrument myself, with others......how the hell do you know there wasn't some sorta help for these players?...i.e. ..You can't tell me when Mickey Mantle came in after an all niter. that the docs didn't have some sorta remedy for him to get on the field. Remember, these guys didn't have all day to recoup, they played day ball 90-something% of the time. Yep. 70's and 80's most of them were doing "Speed" at least to help them get through the grind. I also love all the "outrage" over the steroids like it wasn't obvious at the time something was going on. Well I was more making a reference to the "golden age", ya know, before any kinda science or testing, but your right, the '70s and '80's were full of 'speed' addicts. Hell Doc Ellis admitted to doing acid, before throwing a no-hitter....talk about a trip.....lol |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 15, 2015 21:37:24 GMT -5
Yep. 70's and 80's most of them were doing "Speed" at least to help them get through the grind. I also love all the "outrage" over the steroids like it wasn't obvious at the time something was going on. Well I was more making a reference to the "golden age", ya know, before any kinda science or testing, but your right, the '70s and '80's were full of 'speed' addicts. Hell Doc Ellis admitted to doing acid, before throwing a no-hitter....talk about a trip.....lol That was incredible! |
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Post by itsgot2bdashooz on Feb 15, 2015 21:42:10 GMT -5
Honorable Mentions. AMERICAN LEAGUEYankees - Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera Orioles - Frank Robinson, Cal Ripken Red Sox - Carl Yastrzemski, Pedro Martinez Rays - Fred McGriff Blue Jays - Dave Stieb, Roy Halladay Tigers - Miguel Cabrera, Mickey Lolich Indians - Luis Tiant, Larry Doby White Sox - Wilbur Wood, Dick Allen Twins - Joe Mauer, Tony Oliva Royals - Willie Wilson, John Mayberry Angels - Dean Chance, Frank Tanana Athletics - Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Rollie Fingers Mariners - Randy Johnson, Ichiro Suzuki Rangers - Juan Gonzalez, Adrian Beltre Astros - Jim Wynn, Larry Dierker National LeagueNationals - Pedro Martinez (Expos), Jordan Zimmermann Braves - Eddie Mathews, Tom Glavine Mets - Keith Hernandez, Darryl Strawberry Phillies - Richie Ashburn, Roy Halladay Marlins - Josh Beckett Cardinals - Joe Torre, Ozzie Smith Pirates - Ralph Kiner, Dave Parker Reds - Ted Kluszewski, Frank Robinson Brewers - Rollie Fingers, Pete Vuckovitz Cubs - Kerry Wood, Ron Santo Dodgers - Jackie Robinson, Clayton Kershaw Giants - Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry Diamondbacks - Randy Johnson, Paul Goldschmidt Padres - Dave Dravecky, Eric Show Rockies - Troy Tulowitzki, Andres Gallaraga frank white needs to replace mayberry 8 gold gloves when it meant something, his number is retired, and he has a statue inside the stadium Growing up as teen in the 70's, he always struck me as the ultimate team player. He deserves his place in Canton(as does Davey Concepcion) |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 15, 2015 21:42:52 GMT -5
how do you know you left out of the PED guys? good list, but we have no idea how many of the old timers used I'd be willing to bet some of them did and a helluva lot of them I'll wager bet on games too!!! |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 15, 2015 21:45:04 GMT -5
As for the list, I see Frank Robinson, more as a Oriole, than I do a Red, and could easily replace him with Morgan, and could see an arguement for Joe over Tony, but both are easily in my Reds' top 5, which would include #14. true. |
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Post by itsgot2bdashooz on Feb 15, 2015 21:48:07 GMT -5
how do you know you left out of the PED guys? good list, but we have no idea how many of the old timers used I'd be willing to bet some of them did and a helluva lot of them I'll wager bet on games too!!! I'll second that..good call |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 15, 2015 22:12:49 GMT -5
frank white needs to replace mayberry 8 gold gloves when it meant something, his number is retired, and he has a statue inside the stadium Growing up as teen in the 70's, he always struck me as the ultimate team player. He deserves his place in Canton(as does Davey Concepcion) Frank White was amazing. So was Concepcion. I'll go with that one BF. He was better with the glove than my man Lou Whitaker. Feedback from the fans that witnessed their teams performance trumps my "lens wide open" view every time. I will, in fact, post an updated list in a bit, based on "eyewitness" accounts. |
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Post by tnerb57 on Feb 15, 2015 22:23:58 GMT -5
This is my compilation of MLB team's Icons since World War II. There is, as one would suspect, a lot of room for debate. First, I tend to lean on players that participated in great eras for their teams as a tie-breaker. Second, I did not include Pete Rose because he is banned from baseball (but I loved the guy as a player). Last, you will debate MUCH more the older established teams than you will the expansion teams, especially the teams that were charter members in their respective leagues. You will note that two former Expos greats are named as Washington Nationals. That will likely change in the near future. But not today. The Nationals are a work in progress. They could produce players that supplant the former Expos greats, but not yet. In the Rangers' case, I could have gone back to the old Washington Senators but those teams sucked so bad I chose not to. Harmon Killebrew was on the "original" Senators that became the Twins in the early 60's and he is on the Twins as a co-captain, so there! I also left out ALL of the freaking PED guys. So here goes... AMERICAN LEAGUEYankees- 1) Mickey Mantle 2) Joe Di Maggio Orioles - 1) Brooks Robinson 2) Jim Palmer Red Sox- 1) David Ortiz 2) Ted Williams Rays - 1) Evan Longoria 2) David Price Blue Jays - 1) Roberto Alomar 2) Joe Carter Tigers- 1) Hank Greenberg 2) Al Kaline Indians - 1) Bob Feller 2) Sandy Alomar, Jr. White Sox - 1) Frank Thomas 2) Luis Aparicio Twins - 1) Kirby Puckett 2) Harmon Killebrew Royals - 1) George Brett 2) Bret Saberhagen Angels - 1) Mike Trout 2) Nolan Ryan Athletics - 1) Rickey Henderson 2) Reggie Jackson Mariners - 1) Ken Griffey Jr. 2) Edgar Martinez Rangers - 1) Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez 2) Michael Young Astros - 1) Jeff Bagwell 2) Craig Biggio NATIONAL LEAGUENationals - 1) Andre Dawson 2) Tim Raines Braves - 1) Henry Aaron 2) Greg Maddux Mets - 1) Tom Seaver 2) Tug McGraw Phillies - 1) Mike Schmidt 2) Steve Carlton Marlins - 1) Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez 2) Dontrelle Willis Cardinals - 1) Stan Musial 2) Bob Gibson Pirates- 1) Roberto Clemente 2) Willie Stargell Brewers- 1) Robin Yount 2) Cecil Cooper Reds - 1) Johnny Bench 2) Tony Perez Cubs - 1) Ernie Banks 2) Billy Williams Dodgers - 1) Sandy Koufax 2) Duke Snider Giants - 1) Willie Mays 2) Willie McCovey Diamondbacks - 1) Curt Schilling 2) Luis Gonzalez Padres - 1) Tony Gwynn 2) Randy Jones Rockies - 1) Larry Walker 2) Todd Helton Debate? Gonna have to chew on the other ones for awhile, but pretty solid choices for the Dodgers and Angels. Would have liked to come up with someone from the late 70's early 80's Dodgers, but would have been one of the infielders, and just couldn't break up the quartet (except to say Fuck Garvey For Leaving). |
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