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Post by Zig on Jul 16, 2014 15:54:09 GMT -5
What we're going to do is pose a question /poll for members to give their take on. And we'll give out fake money for the best posts! If there's enough interest in this we'll make a separate area for it and even do it for football, hockey...whatever....And feel free to suggest topics to "debate"...We'll run each topic for a few days or so...and we can have multiple "debates" going at once. Again open for any suggestions,,,and anyone willing to help since I'ma busy guy lol
To start we'll "pay" $5000 for the best post, $2000 for 2nd best and $1000 for the best. And $10,000 to whoever makes the best overall "argument" for their side since this about debating. (best post and best overall argument could be 2 different posters)
Points deducted for unnecessary potty mouth, and please know the rules of the site...stay on topic, don't make it "personal" with anyone.
Thanks.
Starting with a fairly easy one, again feel free to offer any topics or suggestions in that thread...
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Post by redseat on Jul 17, 2014 17:13:53 GMT -5
I am on the fence about this. I mean he did bet on baseball and we have no idea if he did in fact "botch" games or fix games so in that regard no he shouldn't be in. However for what he did statistic wise he should be in... Bud Selig has a haard-on for Rose though.
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Post by The Bag on Jul 31, 2014 11:29:46 GMT -5
the correct answer is yes. you are all welcome.
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bone3421
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Post by bone3421 on Aug 31, 2014 23:35:22 GMT -5
Yes
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Sept 1, 2014 10:22:38 GMT -5
I could not vote but I would have said yes. Mike Schmidt devoted an entire chapter on the subject in his book "Clearing the Bases". He breaks down all of the events that occurred in great detail.
Rose could have been granted reinstatement by Bud Selig when they met at the commissioner's office November 25, 2002. He admitted to Selig that he had been lying when he said he did not bet on baseball (and specifically bet on the Reds, never against them as manager). But he was not contrite enough and Selig basically left him hung out to dry.
The timing was bad too a year or so later when the publisher of Pete's book "My Prison Behind Bars" jumped the gun on both promoting and releasing the book for public sale and it coincided with MLB's announcement that Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley were going to be inducted in the HOF in the summer of 2004.
This was not Pete's fault, he had no control over the book's release date, but it pissed off the baseball community.
It is strictly just my opinion, but I think the all-time hit leader belongs in the Hall. I also believe that he should remain banned from any organized baseball activity because he did bet on baseball games.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 16:31:50 GMT -5
YES!
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 28, 2015 19:22:38 GMT -5
Paul Hornung is in the HoF in Canton and Pete should be in the HoF in Cooperstown. If you think he'd be the only one to bet on their teams games in the Hall you need to give your head a shake
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 28, 2015 19:25:04 GMT -5
Should he be banned from baseball?
Yes.
Should he be in the Hall?
Yes.
I think I posted on this a few months back.
Two entirely different subjects i.m.o.
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 28, 2015 19:25:54 GMT -5
Paul Hornung is in the HoF in Canton and Pete should be in the HoF in Cooperstown. If you think he'd be the only one to bet on their teams games in the Hall you need to give your head a shake YES
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Post by Center Ice on Feb 28, 2015 20:32:12 GMT -5
I'll bet you $50 he gets in!!!!!! Odds anybody? You know, minus the vig!
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 28, 2015 22:11:45 GMT -5
I'll bet you $50 he gets in!!!!!! Odds anybody? You know, minus the vig! I'll give you 100 to 1 odds for 2016 25 to 1 2017 even money 2018 and '19 1 to 25 2020 1to 1000 2021 if I bet on it of course
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 28, 2015 22:14:51 GMT -5
I'll bet you $50 he gets in!!!!!! Odds anybody? You know, minus the vig! I'll give you 100 to 1 odds for 2016 25 to 1 2017 even money 2018 and '19 1 to 25 2020 1to 1000 2021 if I bet on it of course I'm figuring once they let in one of the cheaters (cough) Bonds (cough) Clemens (cough) that it'll start a seismic shift
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Post by Center Ice on Feb 28, 2015 23:26:00 GMT -5
I'll give you 100 to 1 odds for 2016 25 to 1 2017 even money 2018 and '19 1 to 25 2020 1to 1000 2021 if I bet on it of course I'm figuring once they let in one of the cheaters (cough) Bonds (cough) Clemens (cough) that it'll start a seismic shift The Fantastic Four: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and McGuire are not likely to make it any time soon. Too bad we can't return the records they set.
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 28, 2015 23:34:56 GMT -5
I'm figuring once they let in one of the cheaters (cough) Bonds (cough) Clemens (cough) that it'll start a seismic shift The Fantastic Four: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and McGuire are not likely to make it any time soon. Too bad we can't return the records they set. I don't think Sosa or McGwire were HoF worthy anyways Just a couple of 1 trick ponies Cklemens and Bonds should get in but they should let them wait on principle
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 28, 2015 23:36:35 GMT -5
Should he be banned from baseball? Yes. Should he be in the Hall? Yes. I think I posted on this a few months back.Two entirely different subjects i.m.o. Maybe even on this thread it's from the summer
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 28, 2015 23:44:55 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 2:45:31 GMT -5
Pete should get in.
Rose is the all-time Major League leader in hits (4,256), games played (3,562), at-bats (14,053), singles (3,215), and outs (10,328). He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and also made 17 All-Star appearances at an unequaled five different positions (2B, LF, RF, 3B, & 1B).
How does this guy not get in? Might as well bulldoze the building.
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Mar 1, 2015 4:10:47 GMT -5
Paul Hornung is in the HoF in Canton and Pete should be in the HoF in Cooperstown. If you think he'd be the only one to bet on their teams games in the Hall you need to give your head a shake Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were both forced out of baseball due to allegations of game fixing. Although they were later exonerated it was cause the main accuser Dutch Leonard refused to participate in the hearings. There were also allegations that the Philadelphia A's threw their series with the Boston Braves in 1914. Although never proven owner Connie Mack got rid of almost all of the star players from that team. Also the season before the Black Sox scandal it is alleged that the New York Giants threw the 1918 series Two of their players were banned from baseball at the same time as the 8 players from the Black Sox in 1919.
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Otis B. Driftwood
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Post by Otis B. Driftwood on Mar 1, 2015 10:13:07 GMT -5
Tampered with the fabric of the game.
No.
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Post by Center Ice on Mar 1, 2015 17:09:25 GMT -5
Tampered with the fabric of the game. No. True, but if I had to choose between him, Bonds or Clemens, I'd take him.
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Otis B. Driftwood
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Post by Otis B. Driftwood on Mar 1, 2015 17:17:55 GMT -5
Tampered with the fabric of the game. No. True, but if I had to choose between him, Bonds or Clemens, I'd take him. Here's where I invoke the wisdom of 50... and ask the question. How many drug tests did Bonds and Clemens fail? In the case of Mr. Rose... I defer to the Dowd report... and the fact (according to John Dowd himself) that there is so much we the public do not know about what Pete Rose did that is sealed to this day. He did it... he admitted he did it... he knew the consequences... Screw him.
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Post by Center Ice on Mar 1, 2015 17:21:25 GMT -5
True, but if I had to choose between him, Bonds or Clemens, I'd take him. Here's where I invoke the wisdom of 50... and ask the question. How many drug tests did Bonds and Clemens fail? In the case of Mr. Rose... I defer to the Dowd report... and the fact (according to John Dowd himself) that there is so much we the public do not know about what Pete Rose did that is sealed to this day. He did it... he admitted he did it... he knew the consequences... Screw him. Lance Armstrong didn't fail one either. Roger Maris is still the single season HR king and Hank Aaron has the all time record IMHO.
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Otis B. Driftwood
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Post by Otis B. Driftwood on Mar 1, 2015 17:35:23 GMT -5
Here's where I invoke the wisdom of 50... and ask the question. How many drug tests did Bonds and Clemens fail? In the case of Mr. Rose... I defer to the Dowd report... and the fact (according to John Dowd himself) that there is so much we the public do not know about what Pete Rose did that is sealed to this day. He did it... he admitted he did it... he knew the consequences... Screw him. Lance Armstrong didn't fail one either. Roger Maris is still the single season HR king and Hank Aaron has the all time record IMHO. I agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if baseball wanted to put asterisks next to McGuire and Bonds names, I would be fine with it. But - they also never failed a drug test. I blame Selig and the powers that be (including the Players Union) for that. It wasn't against their rules. Now... that doesn't mean they will get into the HoF anytime soon. The voters will see to that. And - that's another can of worms right there. Believe me - when Ivan (Pudge) Rodriguez' name come up for consideration, there will be "questions" because of what Canseco said... as well as ARod's allegations about the culture down here. Personally, I think Pudge is a no-brainer first time selection. So - we will see. But in Rose's case - he cheated and got caught. Spent years denying it and then admitted it. A lot of people feel the stress of the investigation led to the death of Giamatti. I know Fay Vincent believes it. Seriously - screw him.
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Otis B. Driftwood
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Post by Otis B. Driftwood on Mar 1, 2015 17:36:55 GMT -5
And - by the way - screw Ryan Braun too.
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Post by Canuck eh? on Mar 1, 2015 17:41:14 GMT -5
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Otis B. Driftwood
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Post by Otis B. Driftwood on Mar 1, 2015 17:46:54 GMT -5
And - by the way - screw Ryan Braun too. And Drew Pearson. On topic, fool!
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Post by tnerb57 on Mar 1, 2015 17:54:12 GMT -5
Lance Armstrong didn't fail one either. Roger Maris is still the single season HR king and Hank Aaron has the all time record IMHO. I agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if baseball wanted to put asterisks next to McGuire and Bonds names, I would be fine with it. But - they also never failed a drug test. I blame Selig and the powers that be (including the Players Union) for that. It wasn't against their rules. Now... that doesn't mean they will get into the HoF anytime soon. The voters will see to that. And - that's another can of worms right there. Believe me - when Ivan (Pudge) Rodriguez' name come up for consideration, there will be "questions" because of what Canseco said... as well as ARod's allegations about the culture down here. Personally, I think Pudge is a no-brainer first time selection. So - we will see. But in Rose's case - he cheated and got caught. Spent years denying it and then admitted it. A lot of people feel the stress of the investigation led to the death of Giamatti. I know Fay Vincent believes it. Seriously - screw him. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to be that the most important aspect of the cases you've noted is "getting caught". Are you of the "if they can get away with it, more power" camp? From a personal standpoint - and here's where I get hypocritical, FYI - I find the use of chemicals to enhance one's performance to be far worse than placing a bet on a game. "Tampering with the fabric of the game" someone posted earlier - maybe even you. I don't know, but I don't think Rose had tried to alter the outcome of a game in order to win a bet. Every steroid abuser has tried to affect the outcome of hundreds upon hundreds of games. So, IMO, if even one known (not necessarily caught) abuser makes the HoF, Rose should be in also. I actually think he should be in NOW.
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Otis B. Driftwood
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Post by Otis B. Driftwood on Mar 1, 2015 18:15:41 GMT -5
I agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if baseball wanted to put asterisks next to McGuire and Bonds names, I would be fine with it. But - they also never failed a drug test. I blame Selig and the powers that be (including the Players Union) for that. It wasn't against their rules. Now... that doesn't mean they will get into the HoF anytime soon. The voters will see to that. And - that's another can of worms right there. Believe me - when Ivan (Pudge) Rodriguez' name come up for consideration, there will be "questions" because of what Canseco said... as well as ARod's allegations about the culture down here. Personally, I think Pudge is a no-brainer first time selection. So - we will see. But in Rose's case - he cheated and got caught. Spent years denying it and then admitted it. A lot of people feel the stress of the investigation led to the death of Giamatti. I know Fay Vincent believes it. Seriously - screw him. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to be that the most important aspect of the cases you've noted is "getting caught". Are you of the "if they can get away with it, more power" camp? From a personal standpoint - and here's where I get hypocritical, FYI - I find the use of chemicals to enhance one's performance to be far worse than placing a bet on a game. "Tampering with the fabric of the game" someone posted earlier - maybe even you. I don't know, but I don't think Rose had tried to alter the outcome of a game in order to win a bet. Every steroid abuser has tried to affect the outcome of hundreds upon hundreds of games. So, IMO, if even one known (not necessarily caught) abuser makes the HoF, Rose should be in also. I actually think he should be in NOW. Here's what would change my mind about Pete Rose. Come clean. Completely clean. A total mea culpa. Give every detail.... and have John Dowd correlate. Hide nothing. Whatever is "hidden" that we haven't heard - put it out there. And if Dowd concurs that everything is on the table... and it's proven (as you infer) that his actions associated with his betting didn't alter the results of a game, then I would be in favor of immediate reinstatement and consideration for the HoF. At that point - it's up to the voters.
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Post by tnerb57 on Mar 1, 2015 19:43:39 GMT -5
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to be that the most important aspect of the cases you've noted is "getting caught". Are you of the "if they can get away with it, more power" camp? From a personal standpoint - and here's where I get hypocritical, FYI - I find the use of chemicals to enhance one's performance to be far worse than placing a bet on a game. "Tampering with the fabric of the game" someone posted earlier - maybe even you. I don't know, but I don't think Rose had tried to alter the outcome of a game in order to win a bet. Every steroid abuser has tried to affect the outcome of hundreds upon hundreds of games. So, IMO, if even one known (not necessarily caught) abuser makes the HoF, Rose should be in also. I actually think he should be in NOW. Here's what would change my mind about Pete Rose. Come clean. Completely clean. A total mea culpa. Give every detail.... and have John Dowd correlate. Hide nothing. Whatever is "hidden" that we haven't heard - put it out there. And if Dowd concurs that everything is on the table... and it's proven (as you infer) that his actions associated with his betting didn't alter the results of a game, then I would be in favor of immediate reinstatement and consideration for the HoF. At that point - it's up to the voters. I don't see him bowing down. He has Opposition Defiant Disorder. He won't take orders. It's real, look it up. It's part of what makes him "Charlie Hustle". My wife has it too. Either that, or she's just a b*****.
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Post by Center Ice on Mar 2, 2015 10:18:36 GMT -5
I agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if baseball wanted to put asterisks next to McGuire and Bonds names, I would be fine with it. But - they also never failed a drug test. I blame Selig and the powers that be (including the Players Union) for that. It wasn't against their rules. Now... that doesn't mean they will get into the HoF anytime soon. The voters will see to that. And - that's another can of worms right there. Believe me - when Ivan (Pudge) Rodriguez' name come up for consideration, there will be "questions" because of what Canseco said... as well as ARod's allegations about the culture down here. Personally, I think Pudge is a no-brainer first time selection. So - we will see. But in Rose's case - he cheated and got caught. Spent years denying it and then admitted it. A lot of people feel the stress of the investigation led to the death of Giamatti. I know Fay Vincent believes it. Seriously - screw him. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to be that the most important aspect of the cases you've noted is "getting caught". Are you of the "if they can get away with it, more power" camp? From a personal standpoint - and here's where I get hypocritical, FYI - I find the use of chemicals to enhance one's performance to be far worse than placing a bet on a game. "Tampering with the fabric of the game" someone posted earlier - maybe even you. I don't know, but I don't think Rose had tried to alter the outcome of a game in order to win a bet. Every steroid abuser has tried to affect the outcome of hundreds upon hundreds of games. So, IMO, if even one known (not necessarily caught) abuser makes the HoF, Rose should be in also. I actually think he should be in NOW. Armstrong never tested positive but was stripped of his 7 titles. I never really liked the guy, but in a sport where everybody cheated, he was at least the best at never getting caught.
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