tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 8:56:20 GMT -5
Legalize steroids and HGH! Forget about a mound! Make it flat.
Just kidding, of course.
The quote is a football guy (Vince Lombardi).
But seriously. Where has all the hitting gone? PED testing and defensive shifts have sucked away at the offense in baseball. For my fantasy teams I am drafting pitchers in rounds 1-8, then pulling hitters out of a hat, one per position.
Again, you can call bullshit on me there. But really.
Rob Manfred is talking about making shifts illegal. He must have been in D.C., picking up crack crumbs left behind decades ago by Marion Berry (RIP) and putting them in his little glass pipe...Why penalize any team for doing their homework?
What I think needs to happen to at least get the pendulum swinging back the other way, is for hitters to really work in batting practice. Stop trying to put all the balls into orbit and work. Sure, a Tiger can't change his stripes. But a concerted effort made by dead pull hitters, for instance, to at least learn to go the other way when presented with crazed shifts can make a opponent re-think that shift. First, if said hitter can go the other way in these situations, he almost earns a "gimme" hit every time. Second, and perhaps of greater importance - enough hits going the other way will change the "spray chart" for that hitter. Soon, the shifting will stop on that player.
Next, is the notion that "speed don't slump". I am not advocating returning to 1985 any more than I advocate 1968 (all pitching) or 1998 (all power hitting). But those Cardinals teams put up a lot of offense with very little power (save for Jack Clark hitting 22 out of here...). Vince Coleman and Willie McGee led the squad of jackrabbits to 314 stolen bases that year. More important, that team scored 747 runs. Not impressive in 1998, impressive as Hell today. Only the Angels, Tigers and Rockies scored more in 2014. No team in baseball currently has that kind of speed in its system but teams may be well served to unearth some to jump start these anemic offenses we see today.
In summary, just let's see some concerted effort made by team executives and coaching staffs to inject some life into the game as it stands heading into 2015.
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Post by Zig on Jan 28, 2015 9:02:19 GMT -5
howdy TT  Good stuff |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 9:39:58 GMT -5
The science of pitching is progressing faster than the science of hitting, I think. Do you think they will eventually lower the pitchers' mounds to help the hitters out?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 10:20:12 GMT -5
Legalize steroids and HGH! Forget about a mound! Make it flat. Just kidding, of course. The quote is a football guy (Vince Lombardi). But seriously. Where has all the hitting gone? PED testing and defensive shifts have sucked away at the offense in baseball. For my fantasy teams I am drafting pitchers in rounds 1-8, then pulling hitters out of a hat, one per position. Again, you can call bullshit on me there. But really. Rob Manfred is talking about making shifts illegal. He must have been in D.C., picking up crack crumbs left behind decades ago by Marion Berry (RIP) and putting them in his little glass pipe...Why penalize any team for doing their homework? What I think needs to happen to at least get the pendulum swinging back the other way, is for hitters to really work in batting practice. Stop trying to put all the balls into orbit and work. Sure, a Tiger can't change his stripes. But a concerted effort made by dead pull hitters, for instance, to at least learn to go the other way when presented with crazed shifts can make a opponent re-think that shift. First, if said hitter can go the other way in these situations, he almost earns a "gimme" hit every time. Second, and perhaps of greater importance - enough hits going the other way will change the "spray chart" for that hitter. Soon, the shifting will stop on that player. Next, is the notion that "speed don't slump". I am not advocating returning to 1985 any more than I advocate 1968 (all pitching) or 1998 (all power hitting). But those Cardinals teams put up a lot of offense with very little power (save for Jack Clark hitting 22 out of here...). Vince Coleman and Willie McGee led the squad of jackrabbits to 314 stolen bases that year. More important, that team scored 747 runs. Not impressive in 1998, impressive as Hell today. Only the Angels, Tigers and Rockies scored more in 2014. No team in baseball currently has that kind of speed in its system but teams may be well served to unearth some to jump start these anemic offenses we see today. In summary, just let's see some concerted effort made by team executives and coaching staffs to inject some life into the game as it stands heading into 2015. PED Testing has decreased the offense in baseball, obviously. I would say defensive shifts are a strategy employed by more balls staying in the ballpark and the result of computing power & data collection. Here's an article with a few related trends. www.sportingcharts.com/articles/mlb/what-is-the-average-number-of-runs-scored-in-an-mlb-game.aspxOne would expect the home runs and runs per game to remain highly correlated. What is interesting to me is the number of strikeouts being inversely correlated. You would think that as home runs decreased, that batters would take the exact approach you mentioned above. The Cardinals, again for an example, had a statistical aberration two seasons ago with a very high average with RISP and low number of Home Runs and strikeouts (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/30/risp-cardinals-shattered-the-all-time-clutch-hitting-record/). There was a conscious effort for plate discipline in the organization. But minor and major league systems value the long-ball. There is a wave of players rising through the ranks bashing the long ball in the minors (that gets them promoted) then getting tested regularly in the majors. They've learned the long ball swing for years and it's not easy to correct. At least, it is easier for a pitcher to adjust his pace and placement than it is for a hitter to change his swing and approach. As for speed, MLB just isn't getting the quantity of fast athletes that high school and college football gets. If you're fast, you carry the rock. End of story. |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Jan 28, 2015 10:23:48 GMT -5
Bullpens. It is a six inning game if you have three lights out arms in the bullpen.
The best arms on your team used to be starters, now they groom them for the pen. Used to be where hitters got fat. Not any more.
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Post by aka50yearfan on Jan 28, 2015 10:27:10 GMT -5
I think if some stat geek looked up MLB averages for innings 7-9 for every year from , say, 1990 until now, you would find that innings 1-6 are about the same, and there is a huge drop off in recent years for innings 7-9.
Would love to see that graph, maybe it is already out there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 10:39:41 GMT -5
I think if some stat geek looked up MLB averages for innings 7-9 for every year from , say, 1990 until now, you would find that innings 1-6 are about the same, and there is a huge drop off in recent years for innings 7-9. Would love to see that graph, maybe it is already out there. I'm sure it is. The "ride your starter" stigma is lessening. It used to be the unwritten rule that you ride your workhorse until he can't go anymore. It hurts his poor wittle ego to get pulled. Managers used the "pitch count" excuse to some effect but no starter feels like he's magically going to lose effectiveness on the 120th pitch when he threw a 93 mph fastball for a swinging strike on the 119th pitch. But it's better now. I like the analogy of driving a really nice car. Who drives the car until it breaks? Don't fill it with gas. Don't change the oil. Don't rotate the tires. Just keep driving because it's a great car. The best car in the world is guaranteed to fail if you just keep driving it. When it fails, you're probably going to get stuck in some very inconvenient circumstance. Every pitcher will fail at some point due to physical or mental fatigue. If you pitch him until he fails, then you're managerial strategy guarantees 100% failure at some point in the game unless you luck out on a complete game performance. Maybe 3 or 4 guys can do that consistently in all of MLB. But if you pull the pitcher before his failure point and put in a fresh BP arm, then you've reduced your failure percentage from 100% to maybe 25%. |
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 10:41:38 GMT -5
"Grue" said...
As for speed, MLB just isn't getting the quantity of fast athletes that high school and college football gets. If you're fast, you carry the rock. End of story.
True, they are carrying the rock. But weren't they doing that in the days of Walter Payton (God rest his immaculate soul), Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, et al? Somehow baseball teams were still coming up with Coleman, Rickey Henderson and Willie Mc Gee. I'd consider attributing it to the lack of artificial playing surfaces (which I felt sucked...like playing on a gawdamned pool table), but Rickey only played in Toronto for one season, the rest of the time he played on natural surfaces.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 11:14:03 GMT -5
"Grue" said... As for speed, MLB just isn't getting the quantity of fast athletes that high school and college football gets. If you're fast, you carry the rock. End of story.
True, they are carrying the rock. But weren't they doing that in the days of Walter Payton (God rest his immaculate soul), Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, et al? Somehow baseball teams were still coming up with Coleman, Rickey Henderson and Willie Mc Gee. I'd consider attributing it to the lack of artificial playing surfaces (which I felt sucked...like playing on a gawdamned pool table), but Rickey only played in Toronto for one season, the rest of the time he played on natural surfaces. Why can I go down an NFL or CFB roster and find pretty much any player outside of the lineman running sub 4.8 40s and find maybe one or two on any MLB roster? The elite athletes now are faster due to strength training, nutrition, and even performance enhancements. Athletes with elite speed are certainly more numerous now than in the 1970s and 1980s. The elite athletes mostly stopped playing baseball; or their skill set has been devalued by the long-ball focus. I can't see playing surface having and correlation whatsoever - it just isn't that common in HS, Minor leagues. |
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Post by bigddude on Jan 28, 2015 11:17:45 GMT -5
The science of pitching is progressing faster than the science of hitting, I think. Do you think they will eventually lower the pitchers' mounds to help the hitters out?At some point, probably. It would be a quick and easy fix, with a president already in place for doing so (again). |
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Post by bigddude on Jan 28, 2015 11:19:51 GMT -5
"Grue" said... As for speed, MLB just isn't getting the quantity of fast athletes that high school and college football gets. If you're fast, you carry the rock. End of story.
True, they are carrying the rock. But weren't they doing that in the days of Walter Payton (God rest his immaculate soul), Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, et al? Somehow baseball teams were still coming up with Coleman, Rickey Henderson and Willie Mc Gee. I'd consider attributing it to the lack of artificial playing surfaces (which I felt sucked...like playing on a gawdamned pool table), but Rickey only played in Toronto for one season, the rest of the time he played on natural surfaces. The elite athletes now are faster due to strength training, nutrition, and even performance enhancements. Athletes with elite speed are certainly more numerous now than in the 1970s and 1980s. The elite athletes mostly stopped playing baseball; or their skill set has been devalued by the long-ball focus. I can't see playing surface having and correlation whatsoever - it just isn't that common in HS, Minor leagues. Because that is where the faster money is (less time going from college to pro)? Because of changing interests in sports, and how those changing interest seem to break along racial lines? So many reasons. |
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 15:47:18 GMT -5
"Grue" said...
As for speed, MLB just isn't getting the quantity of fast athletes that high school and college football gets. If you're fast, you carry the rock. End of story.
True, they are carrying the rock. But weren't they doing that in the days of Walter Payton (God rest his immaculate soul), Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, et al? Somehow baseball teams were still coming up with Coleman, Rickey Henderson and Willie Mc Gee. I'd consider attributing it to the lack of artificial playing surfaces (which I felt sucked...like playing on a gawdamned pool table), but Rickey only played in Toronto for one season, the rest of the time he played on natural surfaces.
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 15:50:08 GMT -5
Why did the site EAT my last post, then repost the one that I made 5 hours ago. Grrrrr.
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 16:00:20 GMT -5
What I was  trying to post is an agreement with some of you regarding athletes choosing other sports besides baseball. The amateur draft pretty much put a stop to big money bonuses being paid out, except to the most elite of the amateur baseball players. Twofold problem. 1) That there are so few bonuses to lure the amateur baseball player that plays other sports. 2) More importantly, athletes are aware that it will take them two or three years minimum (in most cases) for them to make anything short of near or below poverty range income, and are not even choosing to play baseball in high school and college. The fast track is football and basketball. Never mind that the odds are infinitesimal for most of these people to make it in football or basketball, this is their perception and perception = reality. So, what is the answer to make baseball more competitive with other sports in procurement of young talent? I don't know, but I have an idea. How about a minor league minimum salary? Class A players $50K, class AA players $75K, and class AAA players $100K? This alone could cause young talent to view baseball more seriously as a career. The MLB owners would whine but come on. Who's kidding who? It surely would be a drop in the bucket compared to the money spent (and often thrown at and wasted) on major league "talent"... |
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Post by Zig on Jan 28, 2015 16:28:35 GMT -5
Why did the site EAT my last post, then repost the one that I made 5 hours ago. Grrrrr. are you on a work comp or something? Seems like you have multiple issues...you don't seem to have the quote button, your av just says"tigertowners av" I'm thinking it's not a site issue since nobody else has these issues |
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 16:43:33 GMT -5
I think if some stat geek looked up MLB averages for innings 7-9 for every year from , say, 1990 until now, you would find that innings 1-6 are about the same, and there is a huge drop off in recent years for innings 7-9.
Would love to see that graph, maybe it is already out there.
I think that this is true aka50yearfan...Bullpens have helped to really shut down late-inning offense. I do not have the statistic but I'd say it is even more pronounced in innings 8 and 9 (unless you are talking about Detroit's bullpen LOL).
I also think that this should make the notion of "driving the starter's pitch count up" obsolete. who wants the starter out if the next man up has better stuff than he does!
Two distinct sets of circumstance here though, I think.
Get the bullpens ready in the fifth or sixth inning when you have one of your lesser starters on the mound. These guys will probably need the work if you adhere to my next statement...
When you have a very strong ace and/or a strong #2 starter, STOP BABYING him and give him a shot to finish what he started, or at least go eight innings. The top ten starters in MLB are going to do a better job than anyone that you will bring in. Of course if you get to late in the seventh or into the eighth inning and your pitcher cannot finish, or if he is a wimp (listening Max Scherzer...not talking about David Price), then use the pen.
Ace starting pitchers pitched late into ballgames for 100 years before managers started believing too much in pitch counts over the last thirty years. I say that your stud is a stud...or he isn't. Need the pen? Use it. Don't need it, don't use it.
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 16:49:38 GMT -5
Hi Zig, I just changed avatars. The quote button doesn't do anything so I just copy and paste quotes and it seems to work fine. I am at home on a high quality Lenovo PC using Windows 7. The post that got eaten occurred when I was viewing smileys and hit the back key...maybe the system there does not like this action.  |
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Post by Zig on Jan 28, 2015 17:00:33 GMT -5
Hi Zig, I just changed avatars. The quote button doesn't do anything so I just copy and paste quotes and it seems to work fine. I am at home on a high quality Lenovo PC using Windows 7. The post that got eaten occurred when I was viewing smileys and hit the back key...maybe the system there does not like this action. yeah hitting the back button probably caused that. there is an x to close the smiley window. also, if you go to your profile then settings check the box to save drafts...you wont lose anything that way. |
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 28, 2015 17:17:32 GMT -5
Thanks Zig...I did not have the box checked to save drafts. It is now!  |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Jan 29, 2015 8:52:44 GMT -5
Tells you all you need to know about starters and relievers in today's game.
Max Scherzer in 198 career starts has ONE complete game. It was a shut out. He is the highest paid starter in the game today. He is a six inning pitcher.
( I know the Tigers bullpen sucks, but that is not the point. The game is a six inning game for starters and then guys in the bullpen who throw harder than the starter ever dreamed of finish the game).
Result. Averages down, runs scored down.
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 29, 2015 9:00:49 GMT -5
Tells you all you need to know about starters and relievers in today's game. Max Scherzer in 198 career starts has ONE complete game. It was a shut out. He is the highest paid starter in the game today. He is a six inning pitcher. ( I know the Tigers bullpen sucks, but that is not the point. The game is a six inning game for starters and then guys in the bullpen who throw harder than the starter ever dreamed of finish the game). Result. Averages down, runs scored down. The undisputed truth! People around the Motor Town would try to tell you all day long that this is not true and will throw all kinds of bogus numbers at you to prove it. Funny though, now that he's a Nat the same people are saying "Who needed him anyway"...hmmm |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Jan 31, 2015 10:29:07 GMT -5
Tells you all you need to know about starters and relievers in today's game. Max Scherzer in 198 career starts has ONE complete game. It was a shut out. He is the highest paid starter in the game today. He is a six inning pitcher. ( I know the Tigers bullpen sucks, but that is not the point. The game is a six inning game for starters and then guys in the bullpen who throw harder than the starter ever dreamed of finish the game). Result. Averages down, runs scored down. The undisputed truth! People around the Motor Town would try to tell you all day long that this is not true and will throw all kinds of bogus numbers at you to prove it. Funny though, now that he's a Nat the same people are saying "Who needed him anyway"...hmmm I am not knocking Scherzer, but these starters only going 5 and 6 innings wear out bull pens. 40% of your innings are being filled by your bull pen guys. It is not just the innings a guy pitches, it is the pitches warming up, sitting back down, warming back up and over and over and then you do it a few days in a row and it wears many down. Those guys are not holding back in the pen to go out there and all of a sudden throw 97 mph. Maybe Scherzer is one of the reasons the bull pen in Detroit was not that good. There is a team symetry to all of it too. |
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Jan 31, 2015 10:53:30 GMT -5
aka50yearfan wrote:
It is not just the innings a guy pitches, it is the pitches warming up, sitting back down, warming back up and over and over and then you do it a few days in a row and it wears many down.
Those guys are not holding back in the pen to go out there and all of a sudden throw 97 mph. Maybe Scherzer is one of the reasons the bull pen in Detroit was not that good. There is a team symetry to all of it
Very salient point here. Especially true about bullpens; the warming up, sitting down, warming up back over, etc. Low innings starters do hurt bullpens.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 16:18:25 GMT -5
Too much is required of pitchers in today's game. It isn't going to change because its working. Hitters are struggling with the 90 mph stuff.
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Post by aka50yearfan on Feb 1, 2015 10:41:55 GMT -5
And then there is this. It is now OK to strike out 150-200 times a year. Homeruns pay more than batting averages. Not many guys care about making contact, those xtra 10-15 singles a year would mean an extra 20-30 points on a guys average based on 500 AB.
Maybe it is just more of a case of hitters doing it to themselves? Money ball is HR and 2B and dring in runs, not ave.
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Post by aka50yearfan on Feb 1, 2015 10:44:01 GMT -5
And then there is this. It is now OK to strike out 150-200 times a year. Homeruns pay more than batting averages. Not many guys care about making contact, those xtra 10-15 singles a year would mean an extra 20-30 points on a guys average based on 500 AB. Maybe it is just more of a case of hitters doing it to themselves? Money ball is HR and 2B and dring in runs, not ave. Consider this: Old Bill "Swish Nicholson" would be 100 million dollar player in todays game. |
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tigertowner 68
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Post by tigertowner 68 on Feb 1, 2015 13:23:30 GMT -5
aka50yearfan said: Consider this: Old Bill "Swish Nicholson" would be 100 million dollar player in todays game.So would "Dr. Strangeglove" Dick Stuart.  |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Feb 4, 2015 11:06:44 GMT -5
aka50yearfan said: Consider this: Old Bill "Swish Nicholson" would be 100 million dollar player in todays game.So would "Dr. Strangeglove" Dick Stuart. Who knew those guys were ahead of their time. Game changers. Maybe the old timers HOF committee needs to meet again and review some of those players. Dave Kingman perhaps.. |
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trying to post is an agreement with some of you regarding athletes choosing other sports besides baseball. The amateur draft pretty much put a stop to big money bonuses being paid out, except to the most elite of the amateur baseball players. Twofold problem.
