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Post by Zig on Feb 9, 2015 17:18:17 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the Brady vs Manning "debate" is officially over. It seems now the debate is between Brady and Montana for the "GOAT". For the last 25 years or so "Joe Cool" was almost universally regarded as the "GOAT" due mostly to his teams being 4-0 in Super Bowls. Brady's teams now also have 4 Super Bowl wins albeit with 2 losses. (The Pats did have the late lead in both losses however) Here is the "tale of the tape" between the 2 legendary QBs.  So what do you think? Is Joe still the "GOAT"? Has Brady caught or passed him? Will Brady catch or pass him with another Super Bowl win or appearance? Or do you have another QB as the "Greatest Of All Time"? |
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Post by Center Ice on Feb 10, 2015 14:05:02 GMT -5
Montana has always been my all time favourite and he still is. Nobody could strike fear more than he could when the game was on the line and he needed points to win. I will however give the nod to Brady since not only did he win 4 SB's but took his team to the big game 6 times. I can't argue with that.
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 10, 2015 16:26:22 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the Brady vs Manning "debate" is officially over. It seems now the debate is between Brady and Montana for the "GOAT". For the last 25 years or so "Joe Cool" was almost universally regarded as the "GOAT" due mostly to his teams being 4-0 in Super Bowls. Brady's teams now also have 4 Super Bowl wins albeit with 2 losses. (The Pats did have the late lead in both losses however) Here is the "tale of the tape" between the 2 legendary QBs. So what do you think? Is Joe still the "GOAT"? Has Brady caught or passed him? Will Brady catch or pass him with another Super Bowl win or appearance? Or do you have another QB as the "Greatest Of All Time"? I'll preface this by stating that Joe and Tom are the greatest QB's of the Super Bowl era but there really is only one selection that can be made for greatest of all time and that is Otto Graham 10 seasons of pro football 10 championship games 7 championships 5 time MVP 7 time 1st team All-Pro Still holds the record for career average yards gained per pass attempt, with nine and he also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.814. He averaged 10.5 yards per pass and had a quarterback rating of 112.1 in 1946, a professional football record until Joe Montana surpassed it in 1989. Automatic Otto GoaT
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 10, 2015 20:24:53 GMT -5
Really have a hard time with this as it goes against eras so the 1st thing to do would be to ,ake a best QB of an era after you cover that then the debating begins. This is like the greatest song of all time debates the most recent always dominate them cause they are fresh in the memory So I figured you really need to start by getting the era s top QB's listed but to get a sense of how good they were in that era you alsdo need a couple moer so I figured to try top 3 in each era
Till the end of WW II
to 1945
Sammy Baugh
Sid Luckman
not sure I can find 3 from that era maybe 50 has some insight seeing as he played with them
Post war
to 1959
Otto Graham
Norm Van Brocklin
Y.A. Tittle
Atomic age
to 1969
Johnny Unitas
Len Dawson
Bart Starr
The 70's
Roger Staubach
Fran Tarkenton
Ken Anderson
80's
Joe Montana
Dan Fouts
Dan Marino
90's
Steve Young
Brett Favre
John Elway
2000's
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
2010's
Aaron Rogers
the decades still early
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 20:25:40 GMT -5
As great as Montana was I gotta go with Brady, too. I think Brady's greatness has a lot to do with Billichik. Montana always seemed to be in control but Brady's accomplishments are better.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 20:28:14 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the Brady vs Manning "debate" is officially over. It seems now the debate is between Brady and Montana for the "GOAT". For the last 25 years or so "Joe Cool" was almost universally regarded as the "GOAT" due mostly to his teams being 4-0 in Super Bowls. Brady's teams now also have 4 Super Bowl wins albeit with 2 losses. (The Pats did have the late lead in both losses however) Here is the "tale of the tape" between the 2 legendary QBs. So what do you think? Is Joe still the "GOAT"? Has Brady caught or passed him? Will Brady catch or pass him with another Super Bowl win or appearance? Or do you have another QB as the "Greatest Of All Time"? I'll preface this by stating that Joe and Tom are the greatest QB's of the Super Bowl era but there really is only one selection that can be made for greatest of all time and that is Otto Graham 10 seasons of pro football 10 championship games 7 championships 5 time MVP 7 time 1st team All-Pro Still holds the record for career average yards gained per pass attempt, with nine and he also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.814. He averaged 10.5 yards per pass and had a quarterback rating of 112.1 in 1946, a professional football record until Joe Montana surpassed it in 1989. Automatic Otto GoaT
You make a very good argument. I have to agree with you. |
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Post by Zig on Feb 10, 2015 20:50:09 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 20:56:06 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing. This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 10, 2015 20:57:15 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing. What so Bobby Orr wasn't the best defenseman of all time cause he played when they had 12 teams Puh-lease |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 10, 2015 21:08:16 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing. This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. That's why I broke it down into eras so to cut down on the QB's from there I then went to the 40's vs 50's 60's vs 70's 80's vs 90's 00's vs 10's and you basically come up with Graham for the 40-50's Montana for the 80's and 90's Brady for Y2K's and the toughest was the 60's V.70's to pick a top player Unitas or Staubach but regardless of which won when put up against Graham they pale in comparison So pre 80's Graham post 80's Montana and Y2K Brady Which is where I am now |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 21:14:15 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing. This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. Forgot to vote...Otto Graham... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 21:16:23 GMT -5
This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. That's why I broke it down into eras so to cut down on the QB's from there I then went to the 40's vs 50's 60's vs 70's 80's vs 90's 00's vs 10's and you basically come up with Graham for the 40-50's Montana for the 80's and 90's Brady for Y2K's and the toughest was the 60's V.70's to pick a top player Unitas or Staubach but regardless of which won when put up against Graham they pale in comparison So pre 80's Graham post 80's Montana and Y2K Brady Which is where I am now All things being equal...Brady wouldn't hold a candle to Graham in that era...and Graham would crash horribly today. Opples and Aranges... |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 10, 2015 22:18:18 GMT -5
That's why I broke it down into eras so to cut down on the QB's from there I then went to the 40's vs 50's 60's vs 70's 80's vs 90's 00's vs 10's and you basically come up with Graham for the 40-50's Montana for the 80's and 90's Brady for Y2K's and the toughest was the 60's V.70's to pick a top player Unitas or Staubach but regardless of which won when put up against Graham they pale in comparison So pre 80's Graham post 80's Montana and Y2K Brady Which is where I am now All things being equal...Brady wouldn't hold a candle to Graham in that era...and Graham would crash horribly today. Opples and Aranges... That reminded me of something Ty Cobb said to a sportswriter 'I'd only hit 300 today which the sportswriter responded 'The pitchers are better now?' Cobb replied "You've got to remember - I'm seventy-three." |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 11, 2015 10:51:08 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing. This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. You could also make arguments about the rules especially pertaining to pass interference. Back in the day a player could get mugged imagine if those rules were stilll in place how hard it would be to complete a pass |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 13:01:55 GMT -5
I didn't know Graham was that great. Learn something new every day, I guess.
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 11, 2015 14:25:55 GMT -5
I didn't know Graham was that great. Learn something new every day, I guess. The Cleveland Browns fans have been waiting for the 2nd coming of him for 60 years |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 16:06:14 GMT -5
I didn't know Graham was that great. Learn something new every day, I guess. The Cleveland Browns fans have been waiting for the 2nd coming of him for 60 years It may 600 more before we see a player that good. |
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Post by Center Ice on Feb 11, 2015 17:41:31 GMT -5
Otto was before my time so I can't say much except for he played in leagues with 8-12 teams and there were maybe 2 or 3 "good" teams in those leagues and you only needed to win 1 or 2 playoff games to be the champ. I'll have to see if I can dig up some footage of him actually playing. This is a good segment.  |
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Post by Center Ice on Feb 11, 2015 17:43:48 GMT -5
WTF happened to the debate section? This seems like a good debate to me.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 19:14:35 GMT -5
This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. You could also make arguments about the rules especially pertaining to pass interference. Back in the day a player could get mugged imagine if those rules were stilll in place how hard it would be to complete a pass And the years the DB's used Stik'em...unreal. |
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Post by Center Ice on Feb 11, 2015 19:32:34 GMT -5
This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. You could also make arguments about the rules especially pertaining to pass interference. Back in the day a player could get mugged imagine if those rules were stilll in place how hard it would be to complete a pass They had their ways......  |
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brony
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Post by brony on Feb 11, 2015 19:37:53 GMT -5
This would be my point also...even Montana vs Brady...they played in different leagues/different times. One was more offensive oriented and the other was more defensive, IMO... Hard to determine between 'eras'... However, one could argue that a league with only 8-12 teams wasn't as diluted as they are today...so the guys playing today aren't as good as they were yesteryear. You could also make arguments about the rules especially pertaining to pass interference. Back in the day a player could get mugged imagine if those rules were stilll in place how hard it would be to complete a pass And it goes well beyond that. The rule changes of 1978 which essentially ended the NFL's "Dead Ball Era" included: - The Mel Bount Rule, limiting legal defensive contact with receivers to only five yards beyond the LOS - A seventh official, the Side Judge, was added to help enforce rules downfield - The penalty for intentional grounding was reduced (used to be 15 yards + loss of down) - Pass blocking rules were extended to permit extended arms and open hands (aka more time for the QB in the pocket) Add to that the 'defenseless receiver' rules of today which have opened up the passing game over the middle of the field. As well as the fact that defenders simply cannot hit quarterbacks the way they used to. That's just a sample of the rule changes that have evolved the NFL's passing game into what it is today. It was a hell of a lot more difficult to complete passes back when guys like Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas played. That's why teams relied so heavily on the running game. It's the same reason why NFL greats like Len Dawson and Roger Staubach have seemingly mediocre career passer ratings. It doesn't make them any less of quarterbacks. They simply played under a less forgiving set of rules. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 19:44:34 GMT -5
You could also make arguments about the rules especially pertaining to pass interference. Back in the day a player could get mugged imagine if those rules were stilll in place how hard it would be to complete a pass And it goes well beyond that. The rule changes of 1978 which essentially ended the NFL's "Dead Ball Era" included: - The Mel Bount Rule, limiting legal defensive contact with receivers to only five yards beyond the LOS - A seventh official, the Side Judge, was added to help enforce rules downfield - The penalty for intentional grounding was reduced (used to be 15 yards + loss of down) - Pass blocking rules were extended to permit extended arms and open hands (aka more time for the QB in the pocket) Add to that the 'defenseless receiver' rules of today which have opened up the passing game over the middle of the field. As well as the fact that defenders simply cannot hit quarterbacks the way they used to. That's just a sample of the rule changes that have evolved the NFL's passing game into what it is today. It was a hell of a lot more difficult to complete passes back when guys like Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas played. That's why teams relied so heavily on the running game. It's the same reason why NFL greats like Len Dawson and Roger Staubach have seemingly mediocre career passer ratings. It doesn't make them any less of quarterbacks. They simply played under a less forgiving set of rules. I do NOT understand the Intentional Grounding rule. It is the same thing as a sack...so if they have no incentive to not throw it. About to be sacked and you aren't outside the pocket and can't get it past the LOS? Just toss it toward a group of guys but toward the ground...the Ref's MIGHT call it a legal pass. If not you are no worse than if you took the sack....bleh |
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brony
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Post by brony on Feb 11, 2015 20:04:23 GMT -5
And it goes well beyond that. The rule changes of 1978 which essentially ended the NFL's "Dead Ball Era" included: - The Mel Bount Rule, limiting legal defensive contact with receivers to only five yards beyond the LOS - A seventh official, the Side Judge, was added to help enforce rules downfield - The penalty for intentional grounding was reduced (used to be 15 yards + loss of down) - Pass blocking rules were extended to permit extended arms and open hands (aka more time for the QB in the pocket) Add to that the 'defenseless receiver' rules of today which have opened up the passing game over the middle of the field. As well as the fact that defenders simply cannot hit quarterbacks the way they used to. That's just a sample of the rule changes that have evolved the NFL's passing game into what it is today. It was a hell of a lot more difficult to complete passes back when guys like Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas played. That's why teams relied so heavily on the running game. It's the same reason why NFL greats like Len Dawson and Roger Staubach have seemingly mediocre career passer ratings. It doesn't make them any less of quarterbacks. They simply played under a less forgiving set of rules. I do NOT understand the Intentional Grounding rule. It is the same thing as a sack...so if they have no incentive to not throw it. About to be sacked and you aren't outside the pocket and can't get it past the LOS? Just toss it toward a group of guys but toward the ground...the Ref's MIGHT call it a legal pass. If not you are no worse than if you took the sack....bleh I agree. It should come with a loss of down and/or additional lost yardage. At least it's better than the UFL's rules which fully legalized intentional grounding. Good luck getting a sack in that league. |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 11, 2015 20:44:47 GMT -5
And it goes well beyond that. The rule changes of 1978 which essentially ended the NFL's "Dead Ball Era" included: - The Mel Bount Rule, limiting legal defensive contact with receivers to only five yards beyond the LOS - A seventh official, the Side Judge, was added to help enforce rules downfield - The penalty for intentional grounding was reduced (used to be 15 yards + loss of down) - Pass blocking rules were extended to permit extended arms and open hands (aka more time for the QB in the pocket) Add to that the 'defenseless receiver' rules of today which have opened up the passing game over the middle of the field. As well as the fact that defenders simply cannot hit quarterbacks the way they used to. That's just a sample of the rule changes that have evolved the NFL's passing game into what it is today. It was a hell of a lot more difficult to complete passes back when guys like Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas played. That's why teams relied so heavily on the running game. It's the same reason why NFL greats like Len Dawson and Roger Staubach have seemingly mediocre career passer ratings. It doesn't make them any less of quarterbacks. They simply played under a less forgiving set of rules. I do NOT understand the Intentional Grounding rule. It is the same thing as a sack...so if they have no incentive to not throw it. About to be sacked and you aren't outside the pocket and can't get it past the LOS? Just toss it toward a group of guys but toward the ground...the Ref's MIGHT call it a legal pass. If not you are no worse than if you took the sack....bleh You don't throw it at a pile of bodies cause you might get called for ineligible receiver and lose 5 yards |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 21:07:14 GMT -5
I do NOT understand the Intentional Grounding rule. It is the same thing as a sack...so if they have no incentive to not throw it. About to be sacked and you aren't outside the pocket and can't get it past the LOS? Just toss it toward a group of guys but toward the ground...the Ref's MIGHT call it a legal pass. If not you are no worse than if you took the sack....bleh You don't throw it at a pile of bodies cause you might get called for ineligible receiver and lose 5 yards Right...thus the 'toward a group of guys but toward the ground' part. Also if you throw if at a pile of bodies you stand the chance of interception... |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Feb 11, 2015 21:08:33 GMT -5
I didn't know Graham was that great. Learn something new every day, I guess. There are some people that say Don Hutson was the greatest receiver of all time too And he didn't use stickum |
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Post by williewilliejuan on Feb 11, 2015 23:26:21 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the Brady vs Manning "debate" is officially over. It seems now the debate is between Brady and Montana for the "GOAT". For the last 25 years or so "Joe Cool" was almost universally regarded as the "GOAT" due mostly to his teams being 4-0 in Super Bowls. Brady's teams now also have 4 Super Bowl wins albeit with 2 losses. (The Pats did have the late lead in both losses however) Here is the "tale of the tape" between the 2 legendary QBs. So what do you think? Is Joe still the "GOAT"? Has Brady caught or passed him? Will Brady catch or pass him with another Super Bowl win or appearance? Or do you have another QB as the "Greatest Of All Time"? Just imagine what Joe could have done if he played in a weak conference, no one could touch him or his receivers and they passed on every down. |
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brony
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Post by brony on Feb 12, 2015 9:05:29 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the Brady vs Manning "debate" is officially over. It seems now the debate is between Brady and Montana for the "GOAT". For the last 25 years or so "Joe Cool" was almost universally regarded as the "GOAT" due mostly to his teams being 4-0 in Super Bowls. Brady's teams now also have 4 Super Bowl wins albeit with 2 losses. (The Pats did have the late lead in both losses however) Here is the "tale of the tape" between the 2 legendary QBs. So what do you think? Is Joe still the "GOAT"? Has Brady caught or passed him? Will Brady catch or pass him with another Super Bowl win or appearance? Or do you have another QB as the "Greatest Of All Time"? Just imagine what Joe could have done if he played in a weak conference, no one could touch him or his receivers and they passed on every down. Just imagine what Tom Brady could have done if he played half his career with Jerry Rice. |
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Post by Zig on Feb 12, 2015 9:12:39 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the Brady vs Manning "debate" is officially over. It seems now the debate is between Brady and Montana for the "GOAT". For the last 25 years or so "Joe Cool" was almost universally regarded as the "GOAT" due mostly to his teams being 4-0 in Super Bowls. Brady's teams now also have 4 Super Bowl wins albeit with 2 losses. (The Pats did have the late lead in both losses however) Here is the "tale of the tape" between the 2 legendary QBs. So what do you think? Is Joe still the "GOAT"? Has Brady caught or passed him? Will Brady catch or pass him with another Super Bowl win or appearance? Or do you have another QB as the "Greatest Of All Time"? Just imagine what Joe could have done if he played in a weak conference, no one could touch him or his receivers and they passed on every down. Pretty sure that "Weak conference" has more Lombardi's than the NFC since Brady started. I've already posted elsewhere the division Joe played in was about on par with the AFCE the last decade or so. Very rare for another team in Joe's division to be any good. We also saw what a bum from TB was able to do when he replaced Joe... Also imagine what Brady could have done if there was no salary cap and he didnt have to lose All Pros like Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Seymour etc etc.The very easily could have won in '05 and '06 too also imagine if Brady's defense only gave up 8 PPG like the 9ers did during 3 of their SB runs... we could go back and forth all day on how differences in eras help/hurt both guys cases. But the whole set up now is to prevent continued success. Very hard to keep teams in tact now compared to back in the 80's. FTR I haven't even voted on this. I think both guys are/were just super lol |
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