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Post by aka50yearfan on Jul 19, 2015 9:19:06 GMT -5
Shoeless Joe Jackson was thrown out of the game as a player. Mid career. Big difference. Add in he average 4 home runs a year, ave. 60 RBIs a year and it is his BA of .356 that would have been his calling card to the HOF. Not a first time ballot guy given the history of the beginning of the HOF and how it worked. Look, he was the fall guy for a game that was crooked at the time. Players just did not make the money then and they got it where they could. You could argue he would have played five more years and done great. And who knows, he may get in someday too. I think you may be a bit misguided on your outlook on Jackson. His numbers were very comparable to Ty Cobb and had he not been thrown out in his prime may have even surpased those. Ty Cobb even considered Jackson the better hitter. 4 a year back then was about average, Cobb won the HR crown with 9 one year. It having been so long ago on top of all the bad publicity that went along with getting banned really has changed peoples impression of him. He was a rockstar back then and had he not been thrown out I have no doubt he would have been in the inaugural class along with Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Matthewson and Johnson. In fact I'll go one better and say his vote % would have even been higher than Ruths. ". His numbers were very comparable to Ty Cobb and had he not been thrown out in his prime may have even surpased those." His numbers were not even CLOSE to Cobb's. Jackson would have been 34 the year following his banning from baseball. You are projecting his numbers and even then, they would not equal cobbs if he played until 40. Cobb- BA .366 HR 117 SB 897 RBI 1,933 ( 7 times over 100 ) 2B 724 3B 295 Hits 4,189 Jackson-BA .356 HR 54 SB 202 RBI 785 ( 1 time over 100) 2B 307 3B 168 Hits 1,772 IF Jackson played at the same level until he was 47 ( doubling his career stats ) he STILL would not have equaled, let alone surpassed, Cobb in any category except for triples. Do the math. Numbers are what they are. You can argue he would have made the HOF first time, IF he had continued to play from the age of 34 to 40+ at the same level, but there is no supporting evidence to say he is comparable to cobb. The numbers just are not there. Moral of the story is- Don't be found guilty of fixing games. That is different than betting on your team to win a game. You are projecting numbers. Well, if Mattingly had not developed back troubles and left the game early, he would have been a first ballot HOF. The what if list has hundreds and hundreds of names to be put on it. |
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Macho Row
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Post by Macho Row on Jul 20, 2015 2:04:07 GMT -5
I think you may be a bit misguided on your outlook on Jackson. His numbers were very comparable to Ty Cobb and had he not been thrown out in his prime may have even surpased those. Ty Cobb even considered Jackson the better hitter. 4 a year back then was about average, Cobb won the HR crown with 9 one year. It having been so long ago on top of all the bad publicity that went along with getting banned really has changed peoples impression of him. He was a rockstar back then and had he not been thrown out I have no doubt he would have been in the inaugural class along with Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Matthewson and Johnson. In fact I'll go one better and say his vote % would have even been higher than Ruths. ". His numbers were very comparable to Ty Cobb and had he not been thrown out in his prime may have even surpased those." His numbers were not even CLOSE to Cobb's. Jackson would have been 34 the year following his banning from baseball. You are projecting his numbers and even then, they would not equal cobbs if he played until 40. Cobb- BA .366 HR 117 SB 897 RBI 1,933 ( 7 times over 100 ) 2B 724 3B 295 Hits 4,189 Jackson-BA .356 HR 54 SB 202 RBI 785 ( 1 time over 100) 2B 307 3B 168 Hits 1,772 IF Jackson played at the same level until he was 47 ( doubling his career stats ) he STILL would not have equaled, let alone surpassed, Cobb in any category except for triples. Do the math. Numbers are what they are. You can argue he would have made the HOF first time, IF he had continued to play from the age of 34 to 40+ at the same level, but there is no supporting evidence to say he is comparable to cobb. The numbers just are not there. Moral of the story is- Don't be found guilty of fixing games. That is different than betting on your team to win a game. You are projecting numbers. Well, if Mattingly had not developed back troubles and left the game early, he would have been a first ballot HOF. The what if list has hundreds and hundreds of names to be put on it. Numbers are what they are but can also be easily manipulated or not tell the whole story. Looking at their life time numbers isn't fair to Jackson, he played 12 or 13 seasons less than Cobb. More than 1700 less games. Just glancing at their baseball refference pages, I would say their numbers were very comparable, but that's is just my opinion. I will concede the surpassing point to you and completely agree about "what ifs". However you are assuming Rose always bet on his team to win. There is 0 evidence of that other than his word, which at this point in time is worth squat to me. As much lying as he has done over the years and his willingness to sign away his ability to apply for reinstatement leads me to believe he absolutely bet on his team to lose some games. I think that is why he origionally agreed to the ban and gave up his ability to apply for reinstatement. To keep all of that out of the publics eye. Not sure what the laws are/were at the time but to possibly avoid facing federal time as well. Even had Jackson been guilty, Rose is the bigger scum, IMO. |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Jul 20, 2015 14:33:26 GMT -5
". His numbers were very comparable to Ty Cobb and had he not been thrown out in his prime may have even surpased those." His numbers were not even CLOSE to Cobb's. Jackson would have been 34 the year following his banning from baseball. You are projecting his numbers and even then, they would not equal cobbs if he played until 40. Cobb- BA .366 HR 117 SB 897 RBI 1,933 ( 7 times over 100 ) 2B 724 3B 295 Hits 4,189 Jackson-BA .356 HR 54 SB 202 RBI 785 ( 1 time over 100) 2B 307 3B 168 Hits 1,772 IF Jackson played at the same level until he was 47 ( doubling his career stats ) he STILL would not have equaled, let alone surpassed, Cobb in any category except for triples. Do the math. Numbers are what they are. You can argue he would have made the HOF first time, IF he had continued to play from the age of 34 to 40+ at the same level, but there is no supporting evidence to say he is comparable to cobb. The numbers just are not there. Moral of the story is- Don't be found guilty of fixing games. That is different than betting on your team to win a game. You are projecting numbers. Well, if Mattingly had not developed back troubles and left the game early, he would have been a first ballot HOF. The what if list has hundreds and hundreds of names to be put on it. Numbers are what they are but can also be easily manipulated or not tell the whole story. Looking at their life time numbers isn't fair to Jackson, he played 12 or 13 seasons less than Cobb. More than 1700 less games. Just glancing at their baseball refference pages, I would say their numbers were very comparable, but that's is just my opinion. I will concede the surpassing point to you and completely agree about "what ifs". However you are assuming Rose always bet on his team to win. There is 0 evidence of that other than his word, which at this point in time is worth squat to me. As much lying as he has done over the years and his willingness to sign away his ability to apply for reinstatement leads me to believe he absolutely bet on his team to lose some games. I think that is why he origionally agreed to the ban and gave up his ability to apply for reinstatement. To keep all of that out of the publics eye. Not sure what the laws are/were at the time but to possibly avoid facing federal time as well. Even had Jackson been guilty, Rose is the bigger scum, IMO. True. Rose is the bigger scum by far. I have dislike the man from the beginning. still do. I am not convinced Jackson was in on it at all. His numbers that series were excellent and the whole affair was a set up trial from the beginning. They wanted a scapegoat and they chose him. They, meaning Commissioner Landis with the other owners using him to save their arses too. Most likely it went like this, Jackson knew, was offered in on it, tried to tell Comiskey the owner, but he would not hear of it ( hmmm?) he reportedly admitted to taking some of the money but never participated in throwing any game. He hit .375 that series and muffed or dogged on no fly balls in his left field area. I think this summary of the 'affair' is the best I have researched. Right to the point-and pictures too. woo hoo! www.history.com/news/the-black-sox-baseball-scandal-95-years-ago |
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Post by slapshot on Jul 31, 2015 22:31:51 GMT -5
"Tampered with the fabric of the game." Please. Save such remarks for people like A-Roid. I have a special level of contempt for that sniveling piece of shit. He and Ryan Braun both... You are right Otis, as usual. |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Jul 31, 2015 23:44:58 GMT -5
Numbers are what they are but can also be easily manipulated or not tell the whole story. Looking at their life time numbers isn't fair to Jackson, he played 12 or 13 seasons less than Cobb. More than 1700 less games. Just glancing at their baseball refference pages, I would say their numbers were very comparable, but that's is just my opinion. I will concede the surpassing point to you and completely agree about "what ifs". However you are assuming Rose always bet on his team to win. There is 0 evidence of that other than his word, which at this point in time is worth squat to me. As much lying as he has done over the years and his willingness to sign away his ability to apply for reinstatement leads me to believe he absolutely bet on his team to lose some games. I think that is why he origionally agreed to the ban and gave up his ability to apply for reinstatement. To keep all of that out of the publics eye. Not sure what the laws are/were at the time but to possibly avoid facing federal time as well. Even had Jackson been guilty, Rose is the bigger scum, IMO. True. Rose is the bigger scum by far. I have dislike the man from the beginning. still do. I am not convinced Jackson was in on it at all. His numbers that series were excellent and the whole affair was a set up trial from the beginning. They wanted a scapegoat and they chose him. They, meaning Commissioner Landis with the other owners using him to save their arses too. Most likely it went like this, Jackson knew, was offered in on it, tried to tell Comiskey the owner, but he would not hear of it ( hmmm?) he reportedly admitted to taking some of the money but never participated in throwing any game. He hit .375 that series and muffed or dogged on no fly balls in his left field area. I think this summary of the 'affair' is the best I have researched. Right to the point-and pictures too. woo hoo! www.history.com/news/the-black-sox-baseball-scandal-95-years-ago He was railroaded plain and simple from Black Sox Scandal WikipediaYears later, all of the implicated players said that Jackson was never present at any of the meetings they had with the gamblers. Lefty Williams, Jackson's roommate, later said that they only brought up Jackson in hopes of giving them more credibility with the gamblers |
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Post by Swamp Dragon on Aug 1, 2015 0:54:19 GMT -5
True. Rose is the bigger scum by far. I have dislike the man from the beginning. still do. I am not convinced Jackson was in on it at all. His numbers that series were excellent and the whole affair was a set up trial from the beginning. They wanted a scapegoat and they chose him. They, meaning Commissioner Landis with the other owners using him to save their arses too. Most likely it went like this, Jackson knew, was offered in on it, tried to tell Comiskey the owner, but he would not hear of it ( hmmm?) he reportedly admitted to taking some of the money but never participated in throwing any game. He hit .375 that series and muffed or dogged on no fly balls in his left field area. I think this summary of the 'affair' is the best I have researched. Right to the point-and pictures too. woo hoo! www.history.com/news/the-black-sox-baseball-scandal-95-years-ago He was railroaded plain and simple from Black Sox Scandal WikipediaYears later, all of the implicated players said that Jackson was never present at any of the meetings they had with the gamblers. Lefty Williams, Jackson's roommate, later said that they only brought up Jackson in hopes of giving them more credibility with the gamblers |
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Post by EWA Beach PGH Fan on Aug 1, 2015 9:48:47 GMT -5
True. Rose is the bigger scum by far. I have dislike the man from the beginning. still do. I am not convinced Jackson was in on it at all. His numbers that series were excellent and the whole affair was a set up trial from the beginning. They wanted a scapegoat and they chose him. They, meaning Commissioner Landis with the other owners using him to save their arses too. Most likely it went like this, Jackson knew, was offered in on it, tried to tell Comiskey the owner, but he would not hear of it ( hmmm?) he reportedly admitted to taking some of the money but never participated in throwing any game. He hit .375 that series and muffed or dogged on no fly balls in his left field area. I think this summary of the 'affair' is the best I have researched. Right to the point-and pictures too. woo hoo! www.history.com/news/the-black-sox-baseball-scandal-95-years-ago He was railroaded plain and simple from Black Sox Scandal WikipediaYears later, all of the implicated players said that Jackson was never present at any of the meetings they had with the gamblers. Lefty Williams, Jackson's roommate, later said that they only brought up Jackson in hopes of giving them more credibility with the gamblers Yet Jackson still took some of the money! How did he get some of the money if he was never in on it??? |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Aug 1, 2015 11:50:04 GMT -5
He was railroaded plain and simple from Black Sox Scandal WikipediaYears later, all of the implicated players said that Jackson was never present at any of the meetings they had with the gamblers. Lefty Williams, Jackson's roommate, later said that they only brought up Jackson in hopes of giving them more credibility with the gamblers Yet Jackson still took some of the money! How did he get some of the money if he was never in on it??? Like this as reportedly stated by Jackson- Some players tried to get him in on it in a hotel room. He declined. They threw some money down on a bed regardless and left. Jackson took the money and kept it, but never agreed to throw any games. You have to stay in the e context of those times. nothing like today. Jackson was illiterate. tobacco road south carolina. players worked and barnstormed in offseason for the money. nothing like todays millionaires. hey, there are some interesting research articles on the whole affair with reportedly first hand accounts by players years later. |
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Post by EWA Beach PGH Fan on Aug 2, 2015 7:54:29 GMT -5
Yet Jackson still took some of the money! How did he get some of the money if he was never in on it??? Like this as reportedly stated by Jackson- Some players tried to get him in on it in a hotel room. He declined. They threw some money down on a bed regardless and left. Jackson took the money and kept it, but never agreed to throw any games. You have to stay in the e context of those times. nothing like today. Jackson was illiterate. tobacco road south carolina. players worked and barnstormed in offseason for the money. nothing like todays millionaires. hey, there are some interesting research articles on the whole affair with reportedly first hand accounts by players years later. That's the temptation the gamblers were counting on, those guys didn't make a lot of money. But even someone who's illiterate understands that if someone offers you money to do something and you take it, you are expected to do it even if you never say you will. There is also the possibility it was hush money to keep Jackson quite and he was never expected or asked to throw the games. That's the big problem with taking the money in my mind. If you take it and remain silent about the conspiracy then like it or not you are in on the conspiracy and a part of it. |
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Post by aka50yearfan on Aug 4, 2015 8:58:55 GMT -5
Like this as reportedly stated by Jackson- Some players tried to get him in on it in a hotel room. He declined. They threw some money down on a bed regardless and left. Jackson took the money and kept it, but never agreed to throw any games. You have to stay in the e context of those times. nothing like today. Jackson was illiterate. tobacco road south carolina. players worked and barnstormed in offseason for the money. nothing like todays millionaires. hey, there are some interesting research articles on the whole affair with reportedly first hand accounts by players years later. That's the temptation the gamblers were counting on, those guys didn't make a lot of money. But even someone who's illiterate understands that if someone offers you money to do something and you take it, you are expected to do it even if you never say you will. There is also the possibility it was hush money to keep Jackson quite and he was never expected or asked to throw the games. That's the big problem with taking the money in my mind. If you take it and remain silent about the conspiracy then like it or not you are in on the conspiracy and a part of it. good post. some things I did not consider. |
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Post by EWA Beach PGH Fan on Aug 5, 2015 4:25:59 GMT -5
That's the temptation the gamblers were counting on, those guys didn't make a lot of money. But even someone who's illiterate understands that if someone offers you money to do something and you take it, you are expected to do it even if you never say you will. There is also the possibility it was hush money to keep Jackson quite and he was never expected or asked to throw the games. That's the big problem with taking the money in my mind. If you take it and remain silent about the conspiracy then like it or not you are in on the conspiracy and a part of it. good post. some things I did not consider. Thank-You!!! |
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